Regular 8mm Black & White Print

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studiocarter2
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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by studiocarter2 » Sun May 07, 2017 3:59 am

Here is another one. This time UN 54 was printed on UN 54 in a bracket test. Three prints were made.

https://youtu.be/RO9PaT5V0p4

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by studiocarter2 » Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm

Mmechanic wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:32 am
I have a perforator. It needs an overhaul plus punches for Double 8. If I knew about footage demand, I should consider ordering a set of punches and prepare myself for making available various stocks in Double 8. It’s been a project since a while, I really only need to be able to reckon with some market space. Orwo stocks I can buy unperforated, so that would be an early offer.
Please do that. I do not understand why there are not more perforator services available.
Michael Carter

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by Mmechanic » Thu May 11, 2017 9:49 am

Can tell you why: first, you have to have one. They cost $50,000 new. Second, they’re no longer made, only very few. I know of one company that makes perforators. Third, a 35mm perforator cannot be turned into a 16mm one. Fourth, the tools alone cost several thousands, punches and die. One must know that the fit between punches and die is of IT2, i. e. 0,0012 mm tolerance or 0.000047244". Fifth, you need a workshop with proper equipment for replacing and resharpening the tools and everything else. Sixth, you need a market for the film you punch out, else you don’t invest.

I got mine by a chance, it wasn’t for free but affordable to me. It’s a 16mm model and I can do Double-Eight with it, too. Matter of tooling

So let me repeat my question: How much of which stock would everybody want to buy?

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by studiocarter2 » Thu May 11, 2017 5:52 pm

How much of which stock would everybody want to buy?
Black and white negative, reversal, and print film, in double regular 8mm, all types, 400 ft rolls.
Black and white double perf 16mm on or in 100 and 200 ft spools. I'd wind down from 400 ft cores if need be.
I have some old 16mm cameras that take double perf 16mm film to try.
Since I have a printing machine maybe some shooters would want prints to be made.

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by Mmechanic » Fri May 12, 2017 9:37 am

Alright, Michael, and now some footage? 100 ft a year or 2,000?

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by studiocarter2 » Fri May 12, 2017 4:11 pm

Once past the introductory phases, which I am in now, I could shoot and process 100 feet at a time. Two of those would be edited onto one reel. That would be the product. Copies of 400 foot movies. R8. Waste may double that or more.
When I shot as a kid a case of 400 foot reels was filled. No copies. Everything was kept.
I have a steady cam, a gimble head and heavy tripod, developing and printing capabilities, a super titler, telephoto lenses, projectors, and many cameras for different angles on shots. No helpers. Few lights.
I hate to get scratches on my films. But if I have prints it doesn't matter and I could project movies much more often.
I used to teach animation and had 6 cameras going in one class. That was fun. A real low budget film school. Pencil tests were processed and projected in the same class in one night! Regular 8mm lends itself to such an endeavor much better than S8 because the equipment is cheaper and more reliable. Besides, you learn much more exposing using a light meter yourself.
I don't know why more art teachers don't use R8.

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by Mmechanic » Sat May 13, 2017 7:04 am

Thanks for the insight

Double-/regular Eight has the scapegoat role since space age. That damned cartridge can hardly be taken away from people.
Understandable, of course

I hope somebody else drops in here, too. While 100 ft are nice to have most Double-Eight cameras are made for 25ers. Their
compactness makes Double Eight attractive, just look at the Bell & Howell Filmo 8s, wonderful little cameras. The Ciné-Kodak
Eights were very slim. But it is the projectors that must whir . . .

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by studiocarter2 » Sun May 14, 2017 12:50 am

A Kickstarter project could raise the funds to get going.
https://www.kickstarter.com

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by Mmechanic » Mon May 15, 2017 5:56 pm

Yeah, is a possibility

It will nevertheless be important to get hold of some data.

If I reckon with 1,000 potential buyers of 25-ft portions of a cheap black and white reversal film, I’d look at 25,000 linear feet of 16mm wide stock or twelve 2,000-ft rolls. That puts me somewhere in price.

The question remains how much film I can sell over a given time. A year as starting point, you know, with the usual events to be filmed, summer holidays, birthday, something in-house during winter. I should like to see the raw stock with photo dealers around the globe, with those still around and new ones. I can as well imagine the stock for sale with kiosks, the physical presence means something. Internet commerce okay, but never the same as people showing other people the can, the spool, the film. I see little boxes in front of second-hand 8mm cameras in shop windows, at the side of the boxes spools and unrolled film. Processed and partly split, the whole Double-Eight thing. Little plate reading “Mr. M. Carter kindly provides the film prints”

So one more time: how many feet per year would everybody consume?

► 25 ft, $5; processing and splitting $18 at my lab
► 50 ft, $9; ” $27 ”
► 100 ft, $17; ” $54 ”
Provisional tariffs

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by studiocarter2 » Tue May 16, 2017 1:41 pm

I've never considered printing copies of reversed Foma R 100, but it is possible. Negative is so much easier.

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by Mmechanic » Tue May 16, 2017 6:18 pm

Once the perforator is up and running I can add negative and positive stocks.
To have Ilford Pan F plus would be attractive, I think. Last time I had contact with them the minimum order
was 10,800 feet of 16mm. Orwo PF 2 and PF 2 plus are options, Orwo TF 12 d sound recording film, too.

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by doug » Wed May 17, 2017 11:22 am

I'm not normally a regular-8 person, but I think many people would go for it if the prices of stock were as low as you suggest. Because there are so many 8mm wind-up cameras around: beautiful engineering at rock-bottom prices, and these appeal to many. It's funny that they have survived when many later super-8 cameras haven't. And who cares about a little film fogging when loading ? So many speeds as well to choose from, and better for hands-on special effects.
Doug
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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by Mmechanic » Wed May 17, 2017 7:57 pm

Doug, I’m glad you’re saying that. If somebody looks at a Bell & Howell Filmo Double-Run 8 from the thirties, he has one of the technically best cameras. When it was first introduced, the announced price was $75, that would be $1,327.40 today. The Filmo 8 projector cost $125 in the beginning, $2,274.10 this year. They all still run today. After a CLA they function like new.

Super 8 was a plastic project. It was the biggest single business project of EKC ever, a multi-billion Dollar affair. But the cartridges are disposables, most cameras and many of the projector models are alike. Super 8 / Single-8 is the only film format that has vertically oblong perforation holes. Placement of the image at the side of a hole was a good idea, to have the sound track opposite the perforated edge, too. But the double-run trick is unbeatable. With Double-Super 8 one has it again, unfortunately there are only few DS-8 cameras around.

For me the knack is about marketing. Cardboard boxes must be printed, I need camera spools and return reels. A folder would be nice, a processing mailer, and finally leader must be attached to the finished footage. Only that way naive consumers will get on. If I could convince advanced amateurs, the leader and the folder might be left out.

How about EUROPAN as a trade name? Orthochromatic stock I should designate EUROPHOT or so. I wish I knew whether Film Ferrania will ever bring out an E-6 processed colour reversal film and if so, whether as Double-8 and when. The combined appearance of colour and black-white films could light a new fire.

I’m dreaming.

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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by doug » Thu May 18, 2017 10:52 am

Yes it's a real shame that these engineering masterpieces are not used more today. And before zooms took on, they were very compact too. The Bolex 'pocket' cameras are aptly named. The smaller image of regular-8 maybe is a drawback to some, but superior registration perhaps overcomes any lack of sharpness.
It's a pity too that so many regular-8 projectors are being chucked away. I do it myself I have to confess, just to make space :D
They are so well made. But they usually don't have room for wide aperture lenses and are fitted with hot old lamps.
However, it's good that Eumig and others made many fool-proof dual format projectors. There is nothing like the thrill of seeing your newly processed film on the screen, and I think people today would love this experience. Having to wait is part of the fun ! But the cost factor doesn't help.
Doug
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Re: Regular 8mm Black & White Print

Post by David M. Leugers » Fri May 19, 2017 1:28 am

Simon I'll dream along with you. Serious amateur film shooters (you have to be serious if you are shooting film instead of digital) can easily tackle the demands of shooting with a roll film camera. Once learned, the strengths far outweigh the drawbacks. I have always loved shooting R-8mm , 16mm and then much later, DS-8mm. Over the years almost all of the many S-8mm cameras I owned died on me except for the few left I sold off a number of years ago. None, I repeat none, of my wind-up cameras have. Some are approaching 80 years old... There are tons of great real glass prime lenses around to shoot outstanding images with. The only thing that can kill off my wonderful hobby is the lack of filmstock to shoot with. Such has been the threat for DS-8mm for almost fourty years. I say it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Yes, common wisdom says there are not as many DS-8mm cameras around compared to R-8mm and S-8mm, but there are plenty enough for those wanting the best 8mm images, with longer shooting times and for the best value in obtaining S-8mm images. Sure, you have to man up to handle the big Canon, Pathe or Bolex beasts, or better yet use a tripod. Funny how suddenly your image making looks so much better once you put it on a tripod... I know lots of film shooters have shied away from DS-8mm due to the predicted end of available film. No shooters and film for the format dies. The tons of H-8 and H-16 Bolex cameras can be modified to shoot DS-8mm so many more cameras could become available. I have a Bolex H-16 Rex4 that was converted years ago to take advantage of the terrific economy of shooting DS-8mm on a camera with registration and image quality unsurpased by any S-8mm camera. Roll film, if it's available I'm a customer.

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