Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital cameras

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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

Post by carllooper »

Daniel wrote:On the other hand, if one read the very first 2 or 3 feedbacks of this thread, it seems to me that whatever the methology choosen, the test communicates some differences and/or similarities between the three image system employed.

Thanks anyway for your feedback!
Daniel
Ok. I hope you get something out of it. Don't worry about being neutral. There's no such thing. Make each system work at it's best, rather than "out of the box". As long as you document what you are doing in each case and publishing that along with the results the work will be honest.

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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

Post by Will2 »

For really good DPs that know their cameras and are working with good lighting guys, it would be hard to say 35mm is THAT much better than an Alexa as long as the shot wasn't something where one or the other has the advantage; high contrast scenes (advantage 35mm) or low light (advantage digital).

That being said, for slightly below average DPs like me, I can get much better results with 35mm because my lighting technique is no where as good as some pros. 35mm is so much more forgiving than digital its not even funny.

But that's in 35mm...in 16mm I find the "nature" of film starts to win out over digital. The image looks more organic to me. Yes that's a touchy feely answer and completely depends on what the project calls for but in general I prefer 16 & 8mm for home movies over digital any day but on the high-end.

I will say that I like the images I've been getting on a Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera with PL Zeiss 12-120 (10-100 T2 modified for S16) quite a bit.
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

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In the early days of consumer digital, a computer not only came without software, but it came as the various parts you had to put together yourself, and you were lucky if you had any means of input besides a set of switches, or output as a set blinking lights. They could easily be extras you had to buy separately.

A computer wasn't yet a set of apps you used. A computer was something you had to program yourself in order to turn it into something you could use. A "universal machine" by which was meant instead of having a particular purpose it had no purpose at all. Literally. The big question for those out of the loop was: what do I need a computer for? The true answer was nothing. It had no purpose. If you wanted it to have a purpose it was up to you to give it a purpose.

I mention all this by way of an understanding in relation to digital technology. At it's heart is a philosophy of unlimited use value by virtue of the fact it has no intrinsic built in use valuewhatsoever. There are no tests you can do on a computer proper to establish which is better than another. Because there is no criteria you can use to assess a purposeless system. Sure you might suggest memory capacity, cpu speeds, GPU cores, but all of these are useless on a system which hasn't yet been assigned a use (ie. programmed).

A computer was and still remains something that you program.

Now a digital camera isn't quite the same thing. It has a purpose. But it emerges after the consumer digital revolution has taken place. When the philosophy of digital had already taken hold, and inspired the imagination, and sold it's central premise, of the purposeless machine. And it draws on this same philosophy - the idea of starting from nothing, and building only the capacity for something. To build the means before one even has any ends. And to throw the decision of what the ends are, over to the consumer. This was already something going on way before digital in the mechanical and electronic age, but in the digital age it establishes itself as a fundamental principle and philosophy. The concept of the generic system, out of which one might build any system.

And how does one do this? By adjusting everything into a purposeful pattern.

Just like you might do when confronted with a blank sheet of paper and a pencil. The potential drawing that the paper could become, is not something you can assess or test until you actually draw something. Until you've altered the default purposeless surface of the paper. The paper itself could be toilet paper, newspaper or expensive hand made paper from some remote village in north china and it wouldn't make any difference. It is the artist who makes it into something worth more or worth less. It is the german submarine commander, writing the same poem on different enigma machines, that determines whether the decoded message at Bletchley Park changes the war. Not whether one enigma machine is better than another.

On the other hand, artists have a preference for certain kinds of materials and papers. Or film stocks. Or canvases. Or paints. But these sorts of preferences don't translate into the digital domain. There is no corollary for such predilections. In the digital domain all bytes are the same byte. Featureless. Empty, Pregnant. Purposeless. Anonymous. Grey. Equivalent. Yet to be turned into something describable and even then it's not comparable. It's a different set of principles required. A different universe. A different philosophy. There is no common ground for comparison. One can only fake such common ground, and therefore undermine any real conclusions one could ever draw from such. The philosophy of identity fails. But a philosophy of difference doesn't.

What is the speed of light? Is it a number? For a while it was. And people tried to determine that number, under different conditions, in terms of miles per second (or whatever metric a given culture used). Until it was discovered that the speed of light never changed. It was a constant. In other words there was no need to measure the speed of light. It never changed. It has no need for a number. Only that which changes needs a number. And as a consequence you could use the speed of light itself as your unit of measure for that which does change. As a unit of measure the speed of light is exactly one. It will be miles and seconds that are then defined in terms of the speed of light, rather than the other way around.

Not sure where I was going with that last paragraph ... may as well stop now.

C
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

Post by MovieStuff »

I think that basically, it's like this: No one uses the imagery from a color negative "as is". By its very nature, it MUST be turned into a positive and, in doing so, is subject to the artistic inclinations of the user during the negative/positive conversion. Anyone that says they "do nothing" to a negative is either a liar or isn't sophisticated enough to understand they actually ARE doing something to the negative. On the other hand, people that favor color negative and do tests to compare it to digital will almost always, with rare exception, show the raw digital image with zero calibration, right out of the camera, so that it looks as bad as it can while the color negative has the benefit of being massaged into a more aesthetically pleasing result. I mean, what's the point? :roll:
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

Post by JeremyC »

Hmmmm, after reading the posts here I think mine is the best. 8)
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

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JeremyC wrote:The RED's flesh tones looked pink almost as though it needed a white balance and I noticed it couldn't handle the highlights on the lounge/ocean background set up. The Alex looked slightly plasticly in its flesh tones and I was surprised at the lack of grain in the 500T example.

However, I am looking at these images on a lap top - not anywhere near a critical viewing device and with both the Alex and the RED I would have to know how each of them have been set up/adjusted, something I am very familiar with broadcast cameras but not with sensors set up for cine work.

But heartening to know I could just throw my 20 year old S16 camera at these set ups and not have to worry about tweaking anything once the lighting is set up.
Not worry about tweaking?

One needs to tweak film for colour balance just as much as one does in digital. Be it in the lighting (such as the use of filters) and/or the filmstock used and/or colour correction filters in the camera, and/or in the grading done during printing, or in digital post. One has to tweak for exposure, using a light meter and the camera's aperture. And one might need to tweak one's light meter to accommodate particulars in the camera, or just an old meter. There are a whole range of tweaks both required and happily pursued in both domains.

The digital domain provides for far more tweaking (for better or worse), but in both domains, without any tweaking, all one can hope to demonstrate is one's own lack of tweaking skills. This is the reason behind the saying that goes that "a good artist never blames their tools". You can blame your tools, but all you'll be really demonstrating is your lack of tweaking skills. Or just lack of tweaking full stop.

If anything in the universe is neutral it's the materials. Not us nor our tests. The materials are what they are. But what we do with such materials and expect from them is something else. Be that early in the pipeline (such as tool manufacturing) or later (such as on location on a filmshoot). Even the projectionist is making adjustments. When your light meter no longer works as expected it's not due to the laws of physics failing. They are working the way they always were. It's due to not taking into account the laws of physics responsible for the mismatch between a meter and what it should be reading, and for which tests are required to re-establish how the materials that make up a light meter are behaving with respect to what is required of it. And making the requisite adjustment. In the case of a meter crushed under the wheel of a car, the requisite adjustment might very well involve buying a new light meter. Or making your own.

Calibration, or "tweaking", or just expected parameter adjustment. Call it what you will. The entire system is a system of adjustment towards some result, and for which there are any manner of results one might be aiming at (or hoping will occur).

Now we might complain that digital has too much scope but that is it's philosophy, which the good artist in digital happily pursues - the more tweak-ability or adjustability the better. There is no "correct" state in which the system sits. But each to their own and happily doing so. Be it testing some new chip design or testing some new filmstock design. And updating print grading techniques of HDR toning algorithms. Testing some new firmware upgrade or even a new camera. But each test, at each point (such as a light meter reading), is only a precursor to the calibration/tweak/adjustment it foreshadows and requires (such as an aperture adjustment).

The auto-magical camera is a myth but certainly a strong one. For example, it informs the invention of the auto-exposure camera, be it in it's early incarnation on Super8 cameras, or subsequent digital ones. It even informs filmstock. But even here, where seemingly calibration might be ruled out, it isn't. Some Super8 cameras provide for manual override in terms of a +/- adjustment, or even full control of the aperture. And the orange 85 filter in S8 cameras - what is this if not an adjustment (in or out) required for filmstock in the days of tungsten film and light. The calibration/tweak/adjustment ,in these cases, is just whatever decision you make following a test, which might very well be to use a different camera. Or use a different filmstock. That is the adjustment made. Such big picture adjustments will tend to occur more in relation to those systems posed as auto-magical systems, ie. where the fine local adjustability has been black boxed or locked in behind an auto-magic interface. But the adjustment, local or global, is just as necessary, (even if the requisite adjustment is no adjustment at all) and without which one might very well end up blaming the tools. But then you won't be a good artist.

C
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

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MovieStuff wrote:I think that basically, it's like this: No one uses the imagery from a color negative "as is". By its very nature, it MUST be turned into a positive and, in doing so, is subject to the artistic inclinations of the user during the negative/positive conversion. Anyone that says they "do nothing" to a negative is either a liar or isn't sophisticated enough to understand they actually ARE doing something to the negative. On the other hand, people that favor color negative and do tests to compare it to digital will almost always, with rare exception, show the raw digital image with zero calibration, right out of the camera, so that it looks as bad as it can while the color negative has the benefit of being massaged into a more aesthetically pleasing result. I mean, what's the point? :roll:
Yeah for sure.

How does one compare camera negative, and a dump of the RAW data from a digital camera? They'd need to go through a secondary process before they can become comparable, be it a graded positive print projected on a wall or digitally graded display on a digital screen. And both of which involve a range of adjustments which may or may not result in similar outcomes. I mean the blown highlights in one of the digital shots need not be due to lack of information in the RAW camera data as the tests might imply. Could very well be due to lack of imagination in the digital grade. Or just no digital grade at all. A 'one light print' so to speak. Film can often work well under default circumstances due to the variability of the grain. The genius of film. But digital has it's own genius which needs to be respected as much as one might film. It requires adjusting the HDR raw data to produce an image within the view range of the display. The missing clouds can be brought back into view. If that is what one is after. Or the colour. Or the contrast. Etc. To ignore this would be like ignoring some aspect of the film imaging pipeline. The fact that digital requires more work in post is very much part of how it's designed. It's designed with this in mind. Why have the camera generate raw data at all? Why not just hardwire the chip's final image output into the camera? Well many cheap cameras do. But the raw data gives you the ability to create and vary the image later. The studio becomes the place for fine tuning or changing intent. If you don't respect that then why respect the film process? Why not just throw camera original through a datacine, set at arbitrary settings, and compare digital with that? Because intent tells you not to do that, and each domain requires it's own approach to producing an intended result.

To argue one is better than the other depends on what you are after (and/or what processes you prefer), and what you will therefore do to get there. And which makes comparison ultimately ridiculous, because what you will do to get there rules out in advance what you would not have done to get there. For example, if what you want to get can only be achieved through film, then you'd use film to get there, and digital must necessarily come off second best in any subsequent comparison. And vice versa. And if you don't care what you get (in a so called "neutral" test), then not only will the results be careless, but you'll have no conventional criteria with which to even judge such carelessness.

All the best work done in the early days of digital (and subsequently) have been works designed with what wouldn't work as well if done with film - that exploited digital rather than just treating it as some sort of substitute for film. And the same can be done with film - to make works on film that wouldn't work as well on digital. To use film, not as a substitute for digital, but as part of what the work is about in the first place. Or use both in a hybrid philosophy for that matter. But you have to treat each with the same care you treat either. Or even with a certain amount of carelessness for that matter, if the criteria for judgement is adjusted or suspended accordingly. A lot can be discovered through carelessness. But the way one reads such isn't using conventional notions of quality, for obvious reasons.

C
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

Post by S8 Booster »

I think this kind of evaluation is difficult due to so many variables and all the personal taste for anybody touching the processing an evaluating the finished product - it will differ a lot and, what sort of equipment do you view the clip on?.

I have watched the clip 3 different ways and here are the results:

MacBook: (2010) Film looks superior as watched - not by bucket loads but clearly so. All look a little milky, ref charts in particular.

New MacBook Air which runs Native OSX and Native Win 7. Now, each one sets the screen gamma slightly different.
Win Mode... it all looks dim and milky and I can not see any clear (if any) advantage for the film.
OSX Mode ... film regains its advantage but I still think all imagery has a sort of milky tone over it.

If one adds all relevant comments above and sum up all variables the whole thing becomes a truckload of worms.

Here is one quick sample of my own film. not comparable to the setup for the test clip above but there is no milky layer on my viewmatics, fresh colours, sharp, much better even in ultra low light, Fuji F500. Natural skin tones even way below rated light, Simple transfer.
http://vimeo.com/home/myvideos/page:2/s ... rmat:video

I have done quite a bit of Photoshop post processing of scanned 35mm (still) film from full manual to auto.
In Manual i end up with a lot of versions - i think thy all sort of look good but different - hard to pick the "Best".
Scanner Automode usually delivers some great stuff but manually there is a huge room for tweaking.

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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

Post by JeremyC »

I see my previous post worked.
The digital domain provides for far more tweaking (for better or worse), but in both domains, without any tweaking, all one can hope to demonstrate is one's own lack of tweaking skills.
Carl,

I have to say, I think you are making too many assumptions from what people are saying.
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

Post by Tscan »

There can be opinions but research has shown that film has a more positive effect on the brain chemistry than digital video. All technical factors aside, a film image stimulates more dopamine.
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

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Tscan wrote:There can be opinions but research has shown that film has a more positive effect on the brain chemistry than digital video. All technical factors aside, a film image stimulates more dopamine.
Really ? Do you have more details on this research ?
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

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Tscan wrote:There can be opinions but research has shown that film has a more positive effect on the brain chemistry than digital video. All technical factors aside, a film image stimulates more dopamine.
Ha ha. That must be it.

Film certainly has an overwhelming positive effect on me - even when its transferred to digital - it somehow magically maintains some aspect of it's fundamental magic. I don't think it's within our technical capacity to ever really describe. Might really require something like poetry to make any proper sense of it.

C
Last edited by carllooper on Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

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JeremyC wrote:I see my previous post worked.
The digital domain provides for far more tweaking (for better or worse), but in both domains, without any tweaking, all one can hope to demonstrate is one's own lack of tweaking skills.
Carl,

I have to say, I think you are making too many assumptions from what people are saying.
Could very well be true. But I don't think assumptions, per se, are a problem. Just whether they hold or not.

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Produce a correction,
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Re: Demos comparing 35mm quality to different digital camera

Post by Will2 »

MovieStuff wrote:I think that basically, it's like this: No one uses the imagery from a color negative "as is". By its very nature, it MUST be turned into a positive and, in doing so, is subject to the artistic inclinations of the user during the negative/positive conversion. Anyone that says they "do nothing" to a negative is either a liar or isn't sophisticated enough to understand they actually ARE doing something to the negative. On the other hand, people that favor color negative and do tests to compare it to digital will almost always, with rare exception, show the raw digital image with zero calibration, right out of the camera, so that it looks as bad as it can while the color negative has the benefit of being massaged into a more aesthetically pleasing result. I mean, what's the point? :roll:
Amen. Film is forced color correction. One reason it looks great for me is that a professional colorist is usually working on it at some point. With digital we often just roll with what we've got or do a hack job of color correcting.

That being said, there is generally more information for the colorist to work with in film and it has other pleasing qualities by its nature.
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