New Danish Super 8 camera to debut in 2014

[Nicholas Kovats]

A newly engineered Super 8 camera is set to debut in the spring of 2014. You read correctly. The first one in approximately 32 years. Developed by a Norwegian team represented by Lasse Roedtnes who has been posting updates with pictures on the cinematography forum.

Metal/carbonate body with C-Mount and a manual threading path! In fact we initially thought they had copied the famous innards of the legendary Mekel Engineering SP-1 Super 8 camera. No optical viewfinder. Electronic only. Onboard digital audio recorder. Firmware upgrades.

They will be soon launching a pre-order for the first ten cameras on Indegogo. Anticipated price is 2,695$ USD. We suspect that the first
batch will be snapped up quickly by rental houses.

Analog film keeps punching holes in the digital religion.

Here is Lasse's latest post with a picture of the prototype, i.e. http://www.cinematography.com/index.php ... 09&page=15. I
have compiled an album with 8x photos of the prototype on my public UltraPan8 Facebook page, i.e. https://www.facebook.com/UltraPan8WidescreenFilm

[Will2]

I know we've discussed a fantasy Super 8 camera here and this comes close to everything you could ask for.

I'm sure it was discussed thoroughly no Cinematography.com but too bad about no optical viewfinder; focus might be tough without it.

[etimh]

It was bound to happen. Regardless, it's just another expensive camera I'll never own.

Tim

[Tscan]

This camera will be really awesome, glad to see it coming true. Not sure if i'll find a good enough reason to own one over what i already have? I'm hoping this camera, V3 films, and awesome scans will be taken up on a more professional level around the industry and boost the format. It would be cool to see S8 being used more for how great and different it can look, as opposed to the cliche usage it most always gets. In contrast, options like the new Blackmagic pocket cinema are getting a lot of hype but still put out bland and boring looking images no matter how pixels they add. Now that all of S8's limitations are being broken hopefully it will have an impact it's capable of along side all the digital hype.

[verydarkroom]

It's great to see this one become a reality, kudos to them (I know they're Nordic based, but is it a fact they're Norwegian?). Understandably, the new cam won't have an optical viewfinder but who knows, maybe it will happen too. Maybe if we make lots of noise...

[dsl15746]

Hi Guys & Gals,

Thanks for cross posting our information onto this great forum - we really appriciate it!
One small thing though - we are not Norwegian, we are actually from Denmark. I've wondered myself how people actually realized where we're from perhaps our scandinavian names gives us away

We promise to be active on this forum as well going forward and we are sorry that we have not been good at "marketing" our camera wide and abroad (that has actually been on purpose since we didn't want to announce anything before we knew we where ready) - I'm sure we can all agree that there's nothing worse than bad excuses and product delays, and it's also with sadness in our hearts that we will not make the christmas sales as we hoped however we believe it's better to do it right the first time rather than send a product on the market and let the customers be beta testers on it - we want our camera to work when people pull it out of the box and we want it to be simple to use

The digital viewfinder has a ground glass infront of it making adjustments easier in terms of focus.

In terms of the first production batch - we need to get a minimum of 10 preorders in order to start the production with our subcontractors (that's their minimum order quantity for all the metal parts) however we would target to make between 25 and 50 cameras in the first batch that allows custom coloring etc.

Feel free to ask questions

Tommy & Lasse

[Will2]

It would be cool to see S8 being used more for how great and different it can look, as opposed to the cliche usage it most always gets. In contrast, options like the new Blackmagic pocket cinema are getting a lot of hype but still put out bland and boring looking images no matter how pixels they add. Now that all of S8's limitations are being broken hopefully it will have an impact it's capable of along side all the digital hype.

That's tough. What I like about Super 8 is it's flaws and limitations. The only professional uses really are for the cliche usage it gets already. No matter how good this camera will be it won't be THAT much better than the best existing Super 8 cameras. It's a great thought experiment that we've done on this sight many times; I'm excited they are doing it but just the film geek in me. Can't see it taking off in any significant way although I might be in line for one.

With Arri SRs as cheap as they are now I would go Super 16 in a heartbeat for pro use but I can't see any advantage for Super 8 in pro productions except weddings videos where it makes the most sense and the slightly less film expense and "home movie" look makes more sense.

[Nicholas Kovats]

Welcome to this forum, Lasse and Tommy!

I stand corrected and I would like to ask the forum administrator to modify my thread title accordingly, i.e. "New Danish Super 8 camera to debut in 2014.

Now that's interesting. Can you please expand upon the use and construction of the inline optics (ground glass) regarding the electronic viewfinder? I understand that there is a built in monitor. Are you splitting the video output to another connector for a potential external monitor? And if so what is the video format?

I agree with Will that used 16mm Arri SR's are currently available at great price points. However, this is a different market with what appears to be an "ease of use" design principal. It is significant that this camera is the first new Super 8 machine in 32+ years. Perhaps, it will inspire others to invest time, effort and some fiances in creating additional analog film cameras or perhaps unique one-offs.

We have yet to exhaust the possibilities of film transport.

[dsl15746]

Hi "freedom4kids"

I'm sure people can look past geography, I've also studied and lived in Norway for a year during university time back in the 90'ties so no worries

Regarding your question about the lense mount, I'm not the mechanical designer on this camera but the crude handdrawing below pretty much sums it up:

WP_20131113_21_27_23_Pro.jpg

Basically you have an oscillating mirror shutter (a 45 degree mirror that moves up and down in front of the lens)

Open = Direct path from lens to film media during exposure
Closed = image from lens is projected through a ground glass - into a beam splitter where light is tapped for the light sensor then the remaining image is projected through a planoconvex lens and into another 45 degree mirror and directly into a CCD sensor.

The CCD's image is then digitized and overlayed with information (basically what you see in the LCD such as FPS, Frame count etc...) - this overlaid image is then send to both the side monitor and a video out plug (industry standard CVBS) on top of the camera in either NTSC *OR* PAL format depending on what you purchased the camera with.

A secondary auxillary video out also available in the top connector that carries the non-overlaid image in case you want to record this with a normal video recorder or similar.

On the photo of our camera you see a standard lilliput video monitor on top of the camera that's connected to the top connector so basically any standard monitor can be interconnected with our camera.

Best regards
Lasse

[Nicholas Kovats]

I appreciate the detail, Lasse!

I guess I have to promote your website, too. It appears to be a work in progress but I noticed the additional photos of the prototype, i.e.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Siegfried Holzbauer <regme@advancedpoetx.com>
Date: Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Frameworks] New Norwegian Super 8 camera to debut in 2014
To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com

The guys behind the Logmar Camera project are actually Danish: Lasse Roedtnes / Electronics and Tommy Madsen / Mechanics


Kaerhavebakken 22, DK-9270 Klarup
, Denmark
phone +45 4693 2298


lasse@logmar.dk, tommy@logmar.dk
website:

www.logmar.dk 


Siegfried Holzbauer, media artist
[ [â—‰]]
Texte & Lichtbilder
Im Bäckerwinkel 3
A 4112 St.Gotthard i.M.
Austria/Europe
Website:
www.advancedpoetx.com

[Tscan]

It would be cool to see S8 being used more for how great and different it can look, as opposed to the cliche usage it most always gets. In contrast, options like the new Blackmagic pocket cinema are getting a lot of hype but still put out bland and boring looking images no matter how pixels they add. Now that all of S8's limitations are being broken hopefully it will have an impact it's capable of along side all the digital hype.

That's tough. What I like about Super 8 is it's flaws and limitations. The only professional uses really are for the cliche usage it gets already. No matter how good this camera will be it won't be THAT much better than the best existing Super 8 cameras. It's a great thought experiment that we've done on this sight many times; I'm excited they are doing it but just the film geek in me. Can't see it taking off in any significant way although I might be in line for one.

With Arri SRs as cheap as they are now I would go Super 16 in a heartbeat for pro use but I can't see any advantage for Super 8 in pro productions except weddings videos where it makes the most sense and the slightly less film expense and "home movie" look makes more sense.

It's flaws have always been part of the charm but i know through experience that it doesn't have to be that way. Just when i've seen it look it's best something comes along that makes it better. If you look at the issues behind it's historic limitations, you will find that the issues have been ironed out in it's ongoing evolution. Jitter, dust, film stock dynamics, sound sync, transfer quality, ect... can all be dealt with these days with what's available. At the end of the day you have a medium that looks a lot more interesting and be a lot more creative than digital, is cheaper and more portable than 16mm yet different. The grain palate of the small frame size should be it's only "limitation" that sets it apart from S16, and could do a fine job intercut with 16mm for more flavor in a true film.

[carllooper]

I love Super8 on a whole lot of levels.

There is certainly that "underground" or "guerilla" aspect where you can entertain a kind of easy plug and shoot experimentalism, delighting in and and even pushing the so called "flaws". Indeed pushing the "flaws" is one way of getting around a reading of the results as flawed. It can produce that sense in which the image presents itself as "meant to be flawed" (so called). Or rather - just meant to be the way it is.

But there is also that other history - and just as interesting, where one deconstructs the so called "flaws" in the way one might conventionally do so on 16mm, or 35mm ... or on digital - by treating them as flaws and minimising them. You follow all of the rules, in terms of light meter usage, processing, printing etc. And you invent some new ones for the digital age (in terms of digital transfers).

The apparent problem here is that you can easily fall short of the expectations produced by other mediums. The result can look grainy, or soft (etc) which, with our traditional hat on, we would treat as "flawed". Super8, in terms of traditional values is actually much harder to work with! We might go back to shooting 16mm, or 35mm, or digital, and just using Super8 precisely for it's so called flawed look (and not worrying about using all of the instruments, plus some, we otherwise use to improve the look).

Or we can work on improving the look of Super8, just as we do with 16mm, 35mm or digital. Using all of the traditional methods such as using a light meter, tripod, lights, etc. plus the new methods (digital post etc). Shooting digital is, of course, so much easier, as the engineers have already automated most of the work for you - but the point here is that this traditional work is still being done, just now done by engineers rather than the cinematographer.

I was looking at a 16mm film the other day and I was aware of the grain in the opening shots and thought to myself, "that looks grainy", but interestingly it was no less grainy than some recent material I've seen on Super8, which you can take either way. But more importantly, insofar as the film seemed so completely unconcerned by it's grain I soon forgot about it as well. And whenever I was reminded of it (not by the film but by my brain), it just seemed to make the work stronger, rather than weaker. The film was going about it's business regardless. I could imagine a certain sense of technological humility at operation in the work. Not all films can work this way. Obviously show-off Hollywood blockbusters don't work this way. They have no technological humility at all. Instead they operate as an assault on the senses - bashing you into submission (as fun as that can sometimes be). But I'm thinking of those films which cooperate with your disposition and don't try to overwhelm you (ignoring experimental film here as the sensory bashing there is something different and worthwhile). Its those works where you can forgive their humble technical origins, because they have something on top of that, or through that, that become stronger rather than weaker as a function of their technical limitations, and especially when they are otherwise working right up to those limitations. Pushing at the limits despite the apparent impossibility of exceeding it. Not to show off as such, but to do the impossible.

Looking at the 16mm, with my technical goggles on, there wasn't any reason why current Super8 could not be worked in exactly the same way - using exactly the same traditional techniques one might use when doing 16mm. And look just as good - (or look just as bad, depending on your point of view). Either way the same technological humility approach would work in Super8. Even more so. Pushing right up to the technical limit but actually exceeding it because using something as simple as pin registration (or digital registration) can throw you across a strange boundary, between the surface of the film (a mere image), and into the spatio-visual optical universe a film can otherwise give you. I have my conventional hat on at the moment but it's not actually that conventional. It requires a lot of creativity to pull it off. But it's a different kind of creativity. It's a transcendental thing. One starts to hallucinate. The image becomes a universe and the universe becomes an image.

What is Super8?

I think that's the most interesting about it - that it has this question mark around it - that some serious Super8 cameras have been designed and built over time - not just those cameras made for the home movie market, and re-purposed for music clips to get a flower power or punk look (which any Super8 camera can do) but cameras with the obvious intention of competing with 16mm on the same turf. Because it is actually, more than at any time in the past, completely doable.

I love that idea. Super8 as a replacement for 16mm (the realisation of a forty year old dream), the use of Super8 where you might have otherwise previously used 16mm (in addition to it's use as home movie or funky alternative to 16mm).

C

ps. I do love 16mm as well. I can get a good workout lugging the gear around.

[PyrodsTechnology]

yes, it is great, but i would have preferred a new double super 8 camera with its longer load

[Nicholas Kovats]

Carl,

You are our definitive forum wordsmith. Great stuff. I personally love pushing this tiny format to it's extreme.

[Nicholas Kovats]

I would suggest shooting with a Double Super 8 converted Bolex w/ internal 100ft load or external 400 ft magazine. I believe Wittner sells 3x types of DS8 film in 25 or 100ft loads. You might be able to convince them to sell you longer lengths.

Do you have a preference for shooting long takes? I suspect the average Super 8 shooter is content with 2.5m@24fps 50 ft loads. The economic reality is that it is cheaper to offer longer 16mm loads than the occasional DS8 long roll. Economies of scale. And I make that a statement as very occassional DS8 shooter myself, i.e. http://vimeo.com/45620380 (DS8 E100D)

yes, it is great, but i would have preferred a new double super 8 camera with its longer load