Some help for a first time buyer?

[Eean]

Hi, I'm totally new to all this so please excuse me if i sound stupid or if i ask something that seems really obvious! :oops:
I have tried to search for the answers already but it seems to bring up nearly every thread on here when i try!!
Basically i'm looking at buying an 8mm cinecamera to document my forthcoming trip to the U.S. (i'm getting married)
I don't have any experience in this field, so i don't really know where to start, what to buy etc. Or if there are any books that are good for first timers. I want to be able to shoot at night (for vegas etc). I have a light meter for my camera, can I use that?
Any ideas on what film I need, prices and anywhere I can get the stuff developed in the UK?
Also is there any way to get your film onto DVD or CDR so it can be played for others?

As i say, I'm sorry if this is really obvious information, and if you can point me in the right direction or tell me yourself it would be much appreciated!

:?

[gianni1]

What's your budget for camera, film, processing and viewing?

Under a hundred, a few hundred, or many hundreds?

I would test out a new system, camera film and processing, prior to the main event.

I would shoot on film, transfer it to DV, then edit on the computer.

Top end in the uk is £50 a cart of Kodak Colour Neg 200 film, for the film, processing and telecine to mini DV tape. Todd-AO at http://www.todd-ao.co.uk/ Then it's up to you to edit it on the computer using firewire transfer, assemble edit or cut it with movie maker or imovie (or what have you), then burn a DVD-R or transfer it back to the mini dv tape.

Mid range is the widescreen centre http://www.widescreen-centre.co.uk/cine.php

For all the other options, with such as mail order purchasing of kit, films, processing, DIY options, etc, searching the internet for info... http://www.onsuper8.org


Gianni

[audadvnc]

Welcome, Eean. Filmmaking is fun and artistically gratifying, and in Super 8 it can even be affordable.

If you've read through some of the postings here, you'll have noticed a few time-worn truths:

- Super 8 is a consumer oriented format, so in most cases you don't need to be concerned with complicated cinematography techniques. Remember to focus before you shoot. When shooting tungsten films in daylight, use the amber colored 85 filter built into your camera or install one over the lens.

- All the equipment is old, so your camera may need some attention to get it to work the way you want it to. But don't spend a lot of money repairing broken gear, because there is so much working gear available nowadays for pennies on the dollar. Good cameras have names like Canon, Nikon, Nizo, Bauer, Beaulieu, Leica, Elmo, Sankyo, Chinon. Avoid Kodak; they're all falling apart due to disintegrating gears.

- The light meter in your camera may work, or it may have drifted off spec over the years, or it may be completely dead. You'll need to test.

- The standard "home movie" color film, Kodachrome 40, is no longer available, but other stocks are available in both color and black & white.Plus-X and Tri-X are black & white reversal; Ektachrome 64T is color reversal, and Kodak Vision 2 negative stocks are also available (although you can't project negative stocks directly, they make the cleanest transfers to video). When in the USA, the cheapest and best way to buy film is directly from Kodak via telephone.

- Most people transfer Super 8 film to video for editing and viewing. You send your film to a transfer facility where they use a telecine or film chain to capture to video. This can become the most costly part of your film experience, so shop around. At your stage of development, you don't need (and can't afford) a high-end telecine shop. Get your film transferred to DVD or whatever tape format you have, or directly onto a hard disk drive for edit on your computer.

Have fun with Super 8!

[tlatosmd]

You might not be aware since you only speak of '8mm cine camera', but there are several film formats which have a gauge of 8mm but they ain't compatible amongst each other.

Regular8 is from 1932. It works like an audio cassette, after half of your film, you turn around your spool and expose the other side. Hence, Regular8 is also referred to as Double8.

Super8 is from 1965. You don't get spools to expose, but easy to load cartridges without reel fumbling and you can even load these carts in bright daylight. Perforation holes of Super8 are smaller than those of Regular8, that's why the image is bigger and sharper. What you'll get back from developing aka processing are reels but you can't play them on a Regular projector because of the difference in perforation size.

Single8 is also from 1965. Basically Super8's twin brother as for perforations, it came from the same international engineering group that parted when Kodak claimed the results as exclusively their own, leaving Single8 exclusively to Fuji and Japan as Super8 caught on in the West. The cartridge design is more sophisticated than Super8's coaxial cart, making the Single8 cart look more like an actual audio cassette and less prone to jamming the film. You can get Single8 cameras on eBay internationally like any other format cameras but you'll get Single8 film and processing only from Japan, requiring you to send it back to Japan after exposure and then wait for your processed films to return. However, it's currently the most economical option of 8mm color shooting (at about 19 Euros for 1 cart and processing it, excluding shipping cost once to your location and once back to Japan, shipping processed film back to you is included in cart price) since Kodak discontinued K40.

Double-Super8 came in something like the early 70s. Super8 perforation, lose spools without a cart, and you turn them around after half of your film like Regular8 which is why you have twice as much footage than with Super8. It caught on especially in the formerly Communist East as a home-movie format.

[switar king]

Don't forget Eumig cameras. It amazes me that everyone touts Eumig super 8 projectors, but never really talk about their superb cameras. The later models have great multicoated optics. They can be bought on EBAY for great prices.

[cineandy]

Hi, when are you off to the US? An option is to buy process paid 64t from say http://www.lorellphoto.co.uk/ edit your film, transfer the finished production to dv tape, then burn onto dvd. Cheap cine equipment, editors, splicers, projectors and even cameras can be found at the next BFCC at Ealing, http://www.bfcc.biz/ also there should be a few people there who can offer advice, here are a few more usefull links http://www.learnedcounsel.com/cine.html
Buy a camera that can read film speeds from 25 asa to approx 500asa. Canon 814xls budget permitting imo is a great buy.
One thing i would say, when shooting any moving images for the first time, dont swing the camera around as though your watering the garden with a watering can, and leave the zoom alone, your not a trumpeter. Sorry for the above comments if you already know how to shoot video.

[Eean]

Wow! Thanks! There's a lot to think about!
So I take it that Super 8 and Single 8 Would work on the same camera? It's just one needs to be processed in Japan (I quite like the sound of that as their postal service is excellent - never thought i'd be saying that when i got up this morning!)
We are off to the US in October, so there's plenty of time! (I think!!)
My budget is probably under £100 at the moment, so is ebay my best bet or are there other places to try?

Thanks for the tips on shooting also! No swinging or trumpeting! Nice one!

[cineandy]

Hi, if you are nearish to ealing, then the venue is worth a visit, there is some good equipment to be had, but you must be there early. Of course there is some rubbish aswell. Another option is to buy a standard 8 camera, then a few rolls of kodachrome 25, low lite capabilties will not be good, but you will get a finer grained image compared to the new super 8 64t filmstock. Good point and shoot standard 8 camera is the leicina 8s, this camera does require a 1.35v cell to operate the auto iris.
super 8 and single 8 will not work in the same camera, they will work in the same projector. If you see a camera on ebay its always worth asking the forums opinion before bidding. Almost forgot, you could also try photographica held May time near Victoria railway stn, usually quite a lot of cine there.

[lord_rover]

Wow! Thanks! There's a lot to think about!
So I take it that Super 8 and Single 8 Would work on the same camera?

Nah! Not quite! They will work on the same projector and you can even (dry-) splice them together, but Super8 Cartridges will definitely NOT fit into Single8 Cameras and vice versa (unless you use a very large hammer, that is).

Regards,
Alex

[tlatosmd]

Single8 carts are cheapest here: http://film.club.ne.jp/english/eng_single8_film2003.htm

[Patrick]

There is certainly a massive range of super 8 and regular 8 cameras available on ebay but there are risks involved in going this route to purchase equipment. People on this forum have had a mix of good and bad experiences with buying 8mm cameras off ebay.

Thrift stores and markets are another source of 8mm equipment and generally prices are usually quite low at such places. It is not unheard of to buy a super 8 camera at a market for $30 whereas in the 1970s that same camera may have sold at a retail price of $700. At markets and thrift stores, you also have the convenience of checking out the camera right then and there.

Carry fresh batteries with you to test cine cameras in markets, garage sales etc. Most super 8 cameras use AA batteries but some of the older ones also require a mercury battery for the internal light meter which is a hassle because most countries have banned the sale of mercury batteries. However, some people have reported success with modern battery types like hearing aid batteries etc. Though I can't say how accurate the light readings will be in such cases.

On the other hand, if a super 8 or single 8 camera with features that appeal to you is being sold on ebay for a low price, then it may be worth the risk of making that purchase knowing that if by chance it turns out to be a bad deal, you havent lost too much money on it. The general advice seems to be to avoid sellers who claim they don't know much about the item and / or say the camera hasnt been tested.

[Patrick]

I am not that knowledgable with single 8 cameras but regarding super 8 cameras, if you plan to do some filming of night city scenes as you say, then you could consider an XL camera. Super 8 cameras with 'XL' in the model name usually have large shutter openings combined with lenses with large maximum apertures such as f1.2. Therefore, you'll get a bit more light to expose your film in such low light situations. Cineandy has recommended the Canon 814xls.

[odyssic]

"(although you can't project negative stocks directly, they make the cleanest transfers to video"

Why do negative stocks make cleaner transfers to video?

Steven

[flatwood]

...avoid sellers who claim they don't know much about the item and / or say the camera hasnt been tested.

Great point!!! That usually means, they know enough about it to know it doesnt work. :lol:

[clivetobin]

"...Why do negative stocks make cleaner transfers to video? ...

Color negative film has an automatic color correcting (orange) mask built in, that corrects for color impurities in the dyes. So the color may be more accurate.

On the other hand, I disagree that color negative gives the cleanest transfer in the literal sense of less dirt. Dirt and scratches on reversal film show as black, which is relatively invisible unless the rest of the picture is mostly white.

Dirt and scratches with negative film show as bright white. With most subjects, this is more visible and more objectionable. Keeping the level of white dirt down to a tolerable level is a continual struggle, and may call for a liquid gate, ultrasonic cleaning, handling only in a clean room, software speck removal, etc. as well as "white glove" handling of the film at all stages as opposed to the usual rough treatment that is afforded reversal films.

At present only an expensive transfer using a multi-hundred-kilobuck machine is feasible with negative, if decent color and contrast is to be actually obtained.