No More E64T?

[MIKI-814]

Money does not "double every 7 years" (I presume you meant prices? RPI?). Either way that statement is wrong.

In general and in the long run invested money doubles itself every seven years. It is an economic experience.

8O 8O ...gonna invest everything, in general

[Will2]

I do laugh at Americans upset at $3 a gallon for gas....try nigh on $8 that we Brits have to put up with and I am sure there are worse countries out there.

Europeans have healthcare, we have universal access to automobiles. It's considered a human right here.

[super-8-epiphany]

[quote="Angus"]I do laugh at Americans upset at $3 a gallon for gas....try nigh on $8 that we Brits have to put up with and I am sure there are worse countries out there.quote]


Good post- when I hear people complaining about our fuel prices, they obviously have no clue what it costs overseas- but that depends on what Americans you are talking to. There are those of us who are well informed, and know we are living large at $3.40/gallon.

My daily drive is a larger V-6 3.4 liter engine that gets 20 mpg. This car has a 220 horsepower engine, and car weighs 3400 lbs. It is not small. It requires premium fuel to run smoothly, which costs me now around $3.40/gallon right now in this part of USA.

On highway, it gets 27 mpg.

IMHO, that's a deal. If I take one gallon jug of gas, I can pour it in that car, and drive 27 miles in comfort, at the speed I want to go, listening to music I like, with my family, and when I want to go, in privacy. I can also stop and shop/sight see along the way, at my leisure.

My wife's station wagon is a 2.2 liter and gets 25 mpg.

A train, trolley, taxi, bus, et. al. would cost at least that much, or more, and would not be as comfortable a ride. It would actually be a somewhat dreadful ride, in comparison to my own car.

The last fella I spoke to from Italy, told me they are paying over $10 US per gallon, due to their high fuel taxes. He told me the price per liter, and did the conversion to gallon.

Now that is high. 8O

But I'm not complaining at $3.40, and I still would not complain at $5/gallon. I also have 2 other vehicles with 6.6 liter and 7.7 liter engines in them. They get 11 mpg and 8 mpg respectively- but are not daily drivers- they are special interest vehicles.

If you want to play, to gotta pay- and to make an omelette, one has to first break a few eggs. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go ?

[super-8-epiphany]

things need to change in the Super 8 hobby- or else there will be no hobby soon. The old carts I've been shooting up, have $1 and $3 prices on them. They need to get prices of film for new carts down around $5-6 each- otherwise no one is going to continue doing this.

when the entry level becomes $30 to shoot 3.3 minutes of film, it becomes unaffordable for the average guy. We complain about $3 or $5 a gallon gas- when shooting film is $10 for one minute.

Do a reality check and try some price-indexing. Your cheap films are from 25-30 years past. Money doubles every 7 years. It is the economy. Prices on a niche market or not going to be better then when the product was mainstream.

BTW $3-5 per gallon is not that expensive. It has been too cheap too long. Gasoline usage (miles/gallon) lowering targets for 2020 in USA are ridiculious. These goals are history for like 20 years in other parts of the world.

AJ- let me reiterate and specify- compared to video, film Super 8 costs, are exceedingly expensive. Film is fighting a losing battle against video, for this reason- film is being priced out of the consumer market. When I said "we" I don't mean myself specifically on gas prices. I'm speaking of the USA public in general. If they perceive gas as being a "lot" at $3/gallon, imagine what they perceive Super 8 carts at being $15/ea plus $10 processing. To the avg. citizen, that is astronomical.

so they don't buy it

on fuel rates/mileage- one drives what they can afford- over here, we have a huge industry and sport, dedicated to auto racing- huge engines that guzzle fuel. That is not going to go away, no matter what fuel costs. The racers were paying $7/gallon for high octane racing fuel, 10 years ago here.

we have a different economy than yours, obviously- and the American businessman is not going to drive a small economical car. Fuel could be $40/gallon, they'd still drive Cadillacs and Lincolns. The kids might start looking thin for lack of food, but those cars will still run.

[super-8-epiphany]

BTW $3-5 per gallon is not that expensive. It has been too cheap too long. Gasoline usage (miles/gallon) lowering targets for 2020 in USA are ridiculious. These goals are history for like 20 years in other parts of the world.

Oil out of the ground costs between $3 to $5 per barrel to produce. Producing gasoline from crude oil in a process called "cracking" (if I recall right) produces 250 gallons of gas plus many other products from each gallon of crude.... The international banksters must love you.

David M. Leugers

the reason their fuel prices are so high, is because their governments tax it to the point, the average guy can't afford it

[super-8-epiphany]

A 42-U.S. gallon barrel of crude oil provides slightly more than 44 gallons of petroleum products. This gain from processing the crude oil is similar to what happens to popcorn, it gets bigger after it is popped.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts ... ml#Howused"]http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts ... ml#Howused

this is a very informative website you put up- but...

it does not mention the extreme cost to run those refineries- that crude must be cooked down with heat and chemical additives, which costs a LOT of money

you don't just get 42 gallons of oil, and turn it into fuel for free

the refineries cost millions $$ to build, maintain, operate, and man- and the environmental licensing alone is costly and often banned- they don't let you just build a refinery anywhere- none have been built here in USA for 30+ years for this reason

also keep in mind, all that oil first has be be PUMPED out of the ground- the oil derrick or well must be built and well drilled- the oil must then be TRANSPORTED via tanker across huge oceans or over pipelines- imagine what a tanker or pipeline costs to build/maintain/run/man

then refined

then transported AGAIN to filling stations, which also have to be built/maintained/manned

finally to the consumer

when you look at all this, the end price in USA of $3.40/gallon, it's a BARGAIN. It's still a bargain at $5/gallon.

[Will2]

I've always been facinated at how fuel is taxed in Europe vs. the U.S. I assume that there are all sorts of assistance programs for the poor when it comes to heating oil; probably paid for by those same taxes that keep it prohibitively expensive.

I did a documentary in Haiti about 15 years ago and every Haitian I met wanted to move to the U.S. but after a conversation of how real life is in the States, couldn't imagine that the Goverment actually takes about 25% of your income in taxes. He kept saying that it would be his money how could the goverment take it? This is a very common attitude in the U.S. too.

Everything is perspective. We certainly could use some more taxes on gasoline to pay for road improvements, but I doubt that will happen.

[etimh]

Hi,

A point of view from a poor european guy :
Yes, Super8 shooting is becoming expensive, compared to video. But alas, film is also more and more difficult to buy, and fewer labs accept them for developing. It means Super8 is becoming limited to passionate filmmakers.

Just a word about 9.5mm format.
It's been created in the 20's, by a firm named Pathé in france. Soon absorbed by Kodak, Pathé no longer provides film for years and years. I mean there's no official way to buy Pathé film for more than 40 years ... BTW, a handful of crazy men are still shooting 9.5mm films, they cope with rarity with every mean they have. And they love it.

From my point of view, Super8 shooting is going to follow this path, being only used by foolish people who LOVE it, and will pay (or do) anything they can afford to let the passion burn.

This is a great post.

And a reminder that if we really want to, there is nothing that will stop us from shooting film for as long as we wish.

Even if all of the institutional industries abandon the format, someone will figure out a way to produce the film and get it into carts.

Sure, it may get a bit more expensive, but I just don't believe all of the comments that "super8 will be gone in 10 years." Refuse to accept it.

Tim

[fred621962]

Hi Etimh, Thanks for comments. And concerning gasoline cost, I adopted a few years ago the same tactics as yours, i ride my bike everyday to go at work. Hope to see you some day in Paris.

Fred.

[super-8-epiphany]

[
From my point of view, Super8 shooting is going to follow this path, being only used by foolish people who LOVE it, and will pay (or do) anything they can afford to let the passion burn.

This is a great post.

And a reminder that if we really want to, there is nothing that will stop us from shooting film for as long as we wish.

Even if all of the institutional industries abandon the format, someone will figure out a way to produce the film and get it into carts.

Sure, it may get a bit more expensive, but I just don't believe all of the comments that "super8 will be gone in 10 years." Refuse to accept it.
Tim[/quote]



If this format is going to survive long term, they need to get film and processing costs down. I have a strong intuition, when Kodak bails on Super 8, that will be it. It already costs $10/minute to go from camera/film to projector/screen.

That's $600/hour to see this hobby through to fruition. WTF can afford that long term.

Then I'll have to dust off my old VHS camera, bulk erase a cruddy old tape, charge the battery, and shoot video again.

[BolexPlusX]

About 3 years ago I could buy a roll of K-40 that would work in any Super-8 camera on the planet for $13.25 process included. I bought 10 rolls at a clip and had a ball!

-what we have today is hardly progress measured by that standard.

I continue to keep doing this because it's something that I've been involved in so long it's almost part of my soul, but I can well imagine somebody looking into it these days deciding it's so complicated and so expensive it's just not worth the trouble.

[Jim Carlile]

Didn't someone from Kodak report that they sell more cine-film than ever? 16mm and 35mm of course but handling S8 along side isn't that more demanding.

That 'fact' seems to get bounced around this board a lot but the question is
which stocks are making these record sales? I bet its the print stocks that
are creating these sales figures. With the major movies being released on thousands of screens opening weekend thats a helluvalota print film.

Kodak said in 2003 that that was their best year, in terms of the amount of MP film sold. I don't think the figures were broken down as to what and what.

The 9.5 analogy is a good one. Those guys were called crazy 40 years ago. But they stuck together, a few of them started companies to perf their own film, and away they went. The rise of cottage industries here, like Pro8 and Spectra, is an encouraging thing for the future of S8.

This price comparison argument has been raging for years. It's funny-- old movie making magazines go on about this issue. The really old timers remember when the average British weekly wage was 5 pounds, and 8mm film was 12 and 16 schillings-- quite a chunk of change back then.

The price of S8 films has gone up very little the last 20 years-- not much at all. The $13 Kodachrome with processing was a short-time deal when Kodak was trying to get rid of their stocks a few years ago-- it was the exception, not the rule.

I don't think things have ever been better. It's easier to get a good camera repaired now than it was 20 years ago. Good luck back then if you had a broken 6080 in the U.S. There's more good knowledge around than ever before, too. Sure there's no sound film-- but with digital video, and all the software, do you really need it?

[Angus]

The real problem with super 8 long term is the cartridge. It is complex and no "cottage industry" has managed to produce one....UNLESS the new GK cart really is their own and proves successful in operation.

GK could end up saving super 8.

Because as long as carts are available, someone somewhere will produce film (even if it is B&W) that can be slit, perfed and loaded.

Yes things are not as easy and cheap as when kodachrome was around (I shall never forgive Kodak for that)...but I can still buy a roll of 64T for under £8 and get it processed for around £4 (or DIY cheaper)....that is actually about what K40 cost. You just need to shop around. I don't know how you got K40 and processing for $13 in 2003, it was at least £13 over here then.

[MIKI-814]

Then I'll have to dust off my old VHS camera, bulk erase a cruddy old tape, charge the battery, and shoot video again.

Your video camera will be dead. They die alone, stored or in use, for sure, and their life expectancy is extremely low...

[BolexPlusX]

I don't know how you got K40 and processing for $13 in 2003, it was at least £13 over here then.

Direct from Kodak in New York over the phone, and it was on my front steps when I got home from work the next day. Came with the famous Yellow mailer that said "Processing not available in the United States", but it worked anyway.

Processing was through a US address, but it was sometimes Switzerland and sometimes Dwayne's.

I had a friend in the UK at the time (since passed on) who I was working out a deal to ship K-40 to him at U.S. cost, but unfortunately the $13 deal ended before we pulled it off. Even with shipping it would have been a bargain for him.