A home made Telecine machine.

Forum covering all aspects of small gauge cinematography! This is the main discussion forum.

Moderator: Andreas Wideroe

Post Reply
User avatar
LewisASellers
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:37 pm
Real name: Lewis A. Sellers
Location: U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by LewisASellers »

ccortez wrote: Same here.

If a picture is worth 1000 words, EMJ owes us about 100 pictures!

It sounds like you've got hard drives full of the stuff, so post some frames and clips. And some pictures of all this equipment. And a link to this magical software.
Thx,
c.
I can't speak to anything else, but ... I personally have been doing little else the last month or two but working on the "magical software". It's what I'm doing right now (aside from browsing this web site looking for a few frame captures with perfs visible in them) -- integrating in changes to the timeline view, fixing retaining issues of aspect ratio during the cropping/blow-up process, and what I'm most interested in this morning myself personally -- automatic color temperature detection and compensation. And a million other little things.

We're roughly thinking that maybe within a month it might be presentable to a select few. But it's hard to say....
ccortez
Senior member
Posts: 2220
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:07 am
Location: Austin, Texas

Post by ccortez »

Do you happen to be the same Lewis Sellers that is/was quite active on many ColdFusion developer forums?

FWIW, I can send you some frames from captures with the perf hole visible if you want. That is, if I haven't trashed all those captures to recover drive space. I'll be doing more this weekend, anyway...
User avatar
MovieStuff
Posts: 6135
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:07 am
Real name: Roger Evans
Location: Kerrville, Texas
Contact:

Post by MovieStuff »

LewisASellers wrote:..... what I'm most interested in this morning myself personally -- automatic color temperature detection and compensation. And a million other little things.
One thing I have been looking at is incorporating a medium neutral density grey patch in the sprocket hole area to establish a baseline for comparison for accurate exposure compensation during the pulldown render stage. The idea is that you establish on the first frame of capture what that density is supposed to be in the grey patch (which is captured along with the frame) and then every subsequent frame is altered by the software (if necessary) to match the same exact sprocket hole density when the frame is re-rendered during pulldown.

This would be superior to using deflicker programs to combat shutter induced exposure differences because the film image would not be the sample but, rather, the unchanging raw light coming through the ND material at the visible sprocket hole. The ND material would also prevent unwanted bleeding from the raw light shining through the hole.

Something to consider and would go a long way to compensate for shutter fatigue on shorter exposures. It would also mean that the light source would not have to be voltage stabilized.

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv
User avatar
LewisASellers
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:37 pm
Real name: Lewis A. Sellers
Location: U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by LewisASellers »

ccortez wrote:Do you happen to be the same Lewis Sellers that is/was quite active on many ColdFusion developer forums?

FWIW, I can send you some frames from captures with the perf hole visible if you want. That is, if I haven't trashed all those captures to recover drive space. I'll be doing more this weekend, anyway...

And here just literally yesterday my fiance was saying that no one remembers me from those days -- that I should pick a new name for my new webite besides that darn "intrafoundation". ;-)

Seriously though, Yes. Same one. (Though I very rarely do actual "web" work these days. God, that bores me.)

Well, if you have any frames with perfs either fully or partially visible (I need them all) feel free to just email them to lasellers@gmail.com. They say they have 2 GBs of online storage for email and I have a 1.6mb DSL connection and lots of blank DVD-Rs, etc so.... :)

Why do I want them? The obvious reason -- The app that Eric and I are working on is pulling in single frame captures of 8/16/35mm film. Whether or not the hardware is physically positioning each sucessive frame ... it's a good thing if the software can. :) It does a pre-conversion analysis that essentially locks into the 4 corners of the image as well as the perf holes. If it determines the image is skewed, it does a deskew and crop, otherwise is just does a crop. (Actually, I currently have, for effciency reasons, most everything but the "post-effects" reworked into what is essentially a single transformation call preceded a lot of pre-caching/table building code that generally only needs to be rebuilt for a roll change. What that means it it does crop/deskew/blow-up/color correction/gamma correction/negative to positive if negative film/etc etc etc all at the same time.)
reedsturtevant
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:18 am
Real name: Reed Sturtevant
Location: Lexington, Mass., USA
Contact:

Post by reedsturtevant »

A software guy! Excellent!
LewisASellers wrote:Whether or not the hardware is physically positioning each sucessive frame ... it's a good thing if the software can. :)
If you can find the frame line in software that may be the true reference to stabilize for...in a sloppy camera the perfs will be jittery but the image of the gate itself should be fixed in relation to the camera optical system (apart from breathing along the optical axis I guess). But you probably already thought of that.

Also, are you working high-dynamic-range (HDR) ideas into your system? Just curious...viewtopic.php?t=9139
ericMartinJarvies
Senior member
Posts: 1274
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:26 am
Location: cabo san lucas, bcs, mexico
Contact:

Post by ericMartinJarvies »

ccortez wrote:
awand wrote:
Eric, I'm really interested in seeing some sample images of your transfers in full resolution. Any chance you could share a few frames?
Same here.

If a picture is worth 1000 words, EMJ owes us about 100 pictures!

It sounds like you've got hard drives full of the stuff, so post some frames and clips. And some pictures of all this equipment. And a link to this magical software.
Thx,
c.
i start many projects, and complete few of them. but not because that is the objective, but rather, because it is the smart/right thing for me to do. some projects, after time/money invested, are not worth continuing. other projects may be worth continuing, but may need weeks, months, and in many cases .. years worth of time to complete them. my construction project is now in it's 4th year, and could take another 5-10 years to complete. does this it is not worth it? no, it just means it is what it is. making money and making time is key in life. each person must manage his or her time accordingly. when people find a need to attack or criticize others about how they manage their time/affairs, or what they do or do not do, then the only real value that produces is letting us clearly see each person has their own way of doing things, and people beleive it is the right/best way, hence we all try to share(or convince/preach/etc.) this so that other's may see the same light that we see. clearly we are all guilty of this, but it is only a bad thing if one makes it a bad thing.

i do the best i can with my time, and when i create ideas and make refinements to those, i try to share that info with people so they may account for it or discount it, whichever works for them.

i do not like releasing things that are anything less then perfect ... which is why i have not bothered posting anything, espeically here, because certain folks will attempt to treat such things as absolutes, thereby making a negative spectical of things, instead of a posative embracing of something that will serve purpose.


so when the time is right for both lewis and myself to release our products, be it software or hardware, we will let you here on filmshooting.com know first! we want very badly to get a beta into your hands, but i still ahve a shit ton of gui/functionality work to complete, and lewis has a shit ton of coding to complete. so please be patient.

eric
eric martin jarvies
#7 avenido jarvies
pueblo viejo
cabo san lucas, baja california sur. mexico
cp 23410
044 624 141 9661
paulcotto
Senior member
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:56 am
Location: Texas, USA

Post by paulcotto »

Eric, if you live in fear of what people might think you will never be happy. Please post a few frames or a short take and I promise we will have an open mind. No one here will judge you, but they might learn something. I post less then perfect stuff all the time and no one has been critical.

Paul Cotto





could share a few frames?
[/quote]

Same here.

If a picture is worth 1000 words, EMJ owes us about 100 pictures!

It sounds like you've got hard drives full of the stuff, so post some frames and clips. And some pictures of all this equipment. And a link to this magical software.
Thx,
c.[/quote]

i start many projects, and complete few of them. but not because that is the objective, but rather, because it is the smart/right thing for me to do. some projects, after time/money invested, are not worth continuing. other projects may be worth continuing, but may need weeks, months, and in many cases .. years worth of time to complete them. my construction project is now in it's 4th year, and could take another 5-10 years to complete. does this it is not worth it? no, it just means it is what it is. making money and making time is key in life. each person must manage his or her time accordingly. when people find a need to attack or criticize others about how they manage their time/affairs, or what they do or do not do, then the only real value that produces is letting us clearly see each person has their own way of doing things, and people beleive it is the right/best way, hence we all try to share(or convince/preach/etc.) this so that other's may see the same light that we see. clearly we are all guilty of this, but it is only a bad thing if one makes it a bad thing.

i do the best i can with my time, and when i create ideas and make refinements to those, i try to share that info with people so they may account for it or discount it, whichever works for them.

i do not like releasing things that are anything less then perfect ... which is why i have not bothered posting anything, espeically here, because certain folks will attempt to treat such things as absolutes, thereby making a negative spectical of things, instead of a posative embracing of something that will serve purpose.


so when the time is right for both lewis and myself to release our products, be it software or hardware, we will let you here on filmshooting.com know first! we want very badly to get a beta into your hands, but i still ahve a shit ton of gui/functionality work to complete, and lewis has a shit ton of coding to complete. so please be patient.

eric[/quote]
Don't worry about equipment so much and make your movie!
User avatar
VideoFred
Senior member
Posts: 1940
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 10:15 am
Location: Flanders - Belgium - Europe
Contact:

Post by VideoFred »

LewisASellers wrote: Iand what I'm most interested in this morning myself personally -- automatic color temperature detection and compensation. And a million other little things.

We're roughly thinking that maybe within a month it might be presentable to a select few. But it's hard to say....
Automatic contrast, white balace and levels, without flickering effects, would that be possible? Analising a good example frame or even a short AVI, then apply these values to all the others... Autolevels already excists for virtualDub, but the white balance is not stable enough. Color temperature is changing too much around the film .

I sure look forwards to see this special software!

Fred.
User avatar
VideoFred
Senior member
Posts: 1940
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 10:15 am
Location: Flanders - Belgium - Europe
Contact:

Post by VideoFred »

paulcotto wrote:Eric, if you live in fear of what people might think you will never be happy. Please post a few frames or a short take and I promise we will have an open mind. No one here will judge you, but they might learn something. I post less then perfect stuff all the time and no one has been critical.
I agree. We should not judge each other, but help each other and learn form each other.

Fred. :wink:
User avatar
LewisASellers
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:37 pm
Real name: Lewis A. Sellers
Location: U.S.A.
Contact:

Post by LewisASellers »

reedsturtevant wrote:A software guy! Excellent!
LewisASellers wrote:Whether or not the hardware is physically positioning each sucessive frame ... it's a good thing if the software can. :)
If you can find the frame line in software that may be the true reference to stabilize for...in a sloppy camera the perfs will be jittery but the image of the gate itself should be fixed in relation to the camera optical system (apart from breathing along the optical axis I guess). But you probably already thought of that.
Well, as time permits I'm building a complete replica of Eric's machine to work on the software driver issues. I'm not a hardware guy though (that's more along Eric line). I'm not all that worried about it being too off the mark but in this medium even a pixel or two is noticable.

Yes, like you said. The current strategy on the matter is to detect both perfs and frame image. The perfs aren't as useful as I was more naively thinking they would be, but they still have some use detection wise as a crude "guide" or hint, simply because they're such large uniform targets.

I'm a little paranoid that without it, that in certain (rare) lighting circumstances it might not always be entirely clear where the exposed frame area is, and the auto-detection otherwise might choose a slightly off area.

It's somewhat overkill perhaps, considering the machine, but I also migrated in a deskewing algorithm originally designed for correcting photographic flatbed scans on the Windows platform.

Of course, you can always use crosshairs and choose frames manually but .... that's a lot of work that only say a stop motion animator could love. /-)
LewisASellers wrote: Also, are you working high-dynamic-range (HDR) ideas into your system? Just curious...viewtopic.php?t=9139
The software at the moment (v 113) does not use HDR. However ... ... it is about to move that direction within the next 3 or 4 builds (rough guess). Eric has been pushing to get OpenEXR and Cineon support, etc added in. It's in my to-do list. But there's just so much to do first. (I've been changing the source code of late so much from day to day that's it's become rather difficult for Eric and I to colaborate at that level on it easily at the moment. I think everyone involved is getting a bit "fried" at the moment.)

If you're asking, btw, if it will be able to compose several photographs/image into a higher-range ... I hadn't considered it, by why not. As long as I can find the math equation, an algorithm, some psudeo-source code or a clear explaination of how something is suppose to work, actually coding it isn't much of an issue. (The hardest part of programming is talking to other people's 3rd party software or APIs.)

Anyway, ask Eric about it for more details. But the answer to your question however is yes, just not this second. (But ask me again this time next week. /-)
Cal
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:06 pm
Location: Wollongong, N.S.W., Australia

Post by Cal »

I tried to look at the mentioned link http://www.movie2video.com/ but it wouldn't load up for me. Is there something wrong with the link at the moment?
ccortez
Senior member
Posts: 2220
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:07 am
Location: Austin, Texas

Post by ccortez »

paulcotto wrote:Hello Eric,
I pop up from time to time when HD telecine is mentioned. I have 3 webcams as well as the iRez. One worth noting is the Veo Velocity Connect USB 2.0. It does 1280X1024 and costs $50~$100 USD online. I would say its close to the iRez at a fraction of the cost.

http://www.placesintown.com/malls/circu ... Camera.htm
Paul,

I guess this is where I get lost... I have a WorkprinterXP and want to play with a web cam or machine vision cam setup in order to make the whole system more compact (and to free up my miniDV cam).

What do you do with one of these things to make it focus on the projector gate/image/whatever? Do you use extension tubes or some such? How do you "mount" to the projector/Workprinter/whatever?

Many thanks in advance for advice,
chris
paulcotto
Senior member
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:56 am
Location: Texas, USA

Post by paulcotto »

I use a macro focus slider which racks the camera in and out to achive focus.


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/control ... =&O=NavBar


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... =WDVW&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... =WDVW&rd=1

Several companies make them.

Regards,
Paul Cotto
ccortez wrote:
paulcotto wrote:Hello Eric,
I pop up from time to time when HD telecine is mentioned. I have 3 webcams as well as the iRez. One worth noting is the Veo Velocity Connect USB 2.0. It does 1280X1024 and costs $50~$100 USD online. I would say its close to the iRez at a fraction of the cost.

http://www.placesintown.com/malls/circu ... Camera.htm
Paul,

I guess this is where I get lost... I have a WorkprinterXP and want to play with a web cam or machine vision cam setup in order to make the whole system more compact (and to free up my miniDV cam).

What do you do with one of these things to make it focus on the projector gate/image/whatever? Do you use extension tubes or some such? How do you "mount" to the projector/Workprinter/whatever?

Many thanks in advance for advice,
chris
Don't worry about equipment so much and make your movie!
User avatar
Justin Lovell
Senior member
Posts: 1319
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:52 pm
Real name: justin lovell
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by Justin Lovell »

i've heard that the webcams aren't able to get the same spatial depth for colour rendition.

What are your thoughts on that? I'd be interested in shooting comparison test of the cameras.

Do you have a roll you could send me to transfer that you could also transfer and we could compare results?

intrigued.

jusetan
frame discreet
http://www.justinlovell.com
paulcotto
Senior member
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:56 am
Location: Texas, USA

Post by paulcotto »

I have both the webcam and the iRez i1300C so I can do the test myself. I will try to get you a short clip from both cameras asap.

Regards,
Paul Cotto

jusetan wrote:i've heard that the webcams aren't able to get the same spatial depth for colour rendition.

What are your thoughts on that? I'd be interested in shooting comparison test of the cameras.

Do you have a roll you could send me to transfer that you could also transfer and we could compare results?

intrigued.

jusetan
frame discreet
http://www.justinlovell.com
Don't worry about equipment so much and make your movie!
Post Reply