Ferrania and Regular 8mm

[BAC]

David with Film Ferrania is answering questions on Apug.

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum390/135 ... rania.html

I asked this: I was really hoping to see Regular 8mm in the Kickstarter, any plans for it in the future?

This was the answer: As with double-perf 16mm, if the market demands 8mm spools, we aim to be able to respond on some level...

I think we need to inundate them with requests so they know what the market is.

[carllooper]

We should drag him here.

The following summary from Ferrania sounds good to me:

The idea, as it stands today, is thus:
a) At the start - we are going sell directly via our website and ship globally from two warehouses. The first will be in the US, and Bulgaria will come very soon after. We will expand this structure over time with a goal to provide best-possible shipping costs for everyone.
b) Later, once our production capacity permits, we will answer the hundreds of emails we have received from individual shops around the world.
c) Much later, once we achieve some level of cost control, we will consider entering the traditional distribution structure - but our general philosophy will be get the film into cameras with as few stops in between as possible.
d) At some point in between "later" and "much later," we will open an OEM channel, making products that support the wider industry.

Keep the questions coming!

Over at cinematography.com there is, of course, the usual powers that be, or wannabes, unable to process the concept of enthusiasts (ie. those without ASC after their name) as a legitimate voice. But the world has changed significantly from that which drove most of the 20th century. Where Hollywood once monopolised the film industry, and kept enthusiasts in check, and businesses in general worked according to a top down model where technology starts big with a small group of big clients, and then rolls out smaller technology for a larger world of smaller clients, the reverse has been evolving for quite some time now. The invention of the "universal" machine. This too started out large and unwieldy and owned by a small number of deep pocket clients, but where it takes off and rapidly (or rabidly) evolves is when it's transformed into that which will capture the imagination of the enthusiast (and eventually everyone). Instead of deep pocket clients paving the way for any evolution in such systems it's the concept of the average joe blow in the street that accelerates the evolution. Every single person - enthusiast or otherwise. Not some eccentric director calling the shots - but everyone, collectively doing so - if not literally - definitely conceptually: ie. the board rooms targets everyone - not just someone with deep pockets.

This has always been the case (cars, refrigerators, houses, etc) but perhaps nothing anywhere near the penetration of the universal machine. So much so we'd find nothing unusual today with a scene of the down and out in the street otherwise talking on a mobile phone. Throw yourself back to the sixties and such a scene would be decidedly odd. One would assume they were some crew member from some giant star ship, disguised as low on their luck (were they not sprung talking to the mother ship on their communicator).

The communication network is such now that niche markets are quite capable of emerging and remaining sustainable. The tyranny of distance that only big business could overcome in the past, is no longer the case. Its a different world we live in.

C

[aj]

I doubt this Bulgaria factor is still on. Is this current posting?

Now they invest all their energy in re-installing equipment in Italy and supposedly later all should go to Bulgaria?
Who is going to operate the machines in Bulgary. All Italians are about to move to Bulgaria?

The only advantage for some time would be that postal rates and service are more bareable there
And they could set up a processing facility there. It would help a lot if film with processing would
cost a lot less. I.e. together at less than Euro 30.

[nikonr10]

We should drag him here.

The following summary from Ferrania sounds good to me:

The idea, as it stands today, is thus:
a) At the start - we are going sell directly via our website and ship globally from two warehouses. The first will be in the US, and Bulgaria will come very soon after. We will expand this structure over time with a goal to provide best-possible shipping costs for everyone.
b) Later, once our production capacity permits, we will answer the hundreds of emails we have received from individual shops around the world.
c) Much later, once we achieve some level of cost control, we will consider entering the traditional distribution structure - but our general philosophy will be get the film into cameras with as few stops in between as possible.
d) At some point in between "later" and "much later," we will open an OEM channel, making products that support the wider industry.

Keep the questions coming!

Over at cinematography.com there is, of course, the usual powers that be, or wannabes, unable to process the concept of enthusiasts (ie. those without ASC after their name) as a legitimate voice. But the world has changed significantly from that which drove most of the 20th century. Where Hollywood once monopolised the film industry, and kept enthusiasts in check, and businesses in general worked according to a top down model where technology starts big with a small group of big clients, and then rolls out smaller technology for a larger world of smaller clients, the reverse has been evolving for quite some time now. The invention of the "universal" machine. This too started out large and unwieldy and owned by a small number of deep pocket clients, but where it takes off and rapidly (or rabidly) evolves is when it's transformed into that which will capture the imagination of the enthusiast (and eventually everyone). Instead of deep pocket clients paving the way for any evolution in such systems it's the concept of the average joe blow in the street that accelerates the evolution. Every single person - enthusiast or otherwise. Not some eccentric director calling the shots - but everyone, collectively doing so - if not literally - definitely conceptually: ie. the board rooms targets everyone - not just someone with deep pockets.

This has always been the case (cars, refrigerators, houses, etc) but perhaps nothing anywhere near the penetration of the universal machine. So much so we'd find nothing unusual today with a scene of the down and out in the street otherwise talking on a mobile phone. Throw yourself back to the sixties and such a scene would be decidedly odd. One would assume they were some crew member from some giant star ship, disguised as low on their luck (were they not sprung talking to the mother ship on their communicator).

The communication network is such now that niche markets are quite capable of emerging and remaining sustainable. The tyranny of distance that only big business could overcome in the past, is no longer the case. Its a different world we live in.

C

Niche Markets / I think you also find a 2nd hand market outthere , Ie the price now of 16mm cameras like arri to what there were 15 years ago back then was just a dream' now the ? can I find film to use ? /mind you film keeps going up in price ? and makeing super 8 films is not cheap ? the Kodak moment is not for the everyday people now . MInd you I still write with a ink pen .

[carllooper]

We will, perhaps, use film more sparingly, but no less daringly.

Its very difficulty, carries with it, into a work, the very work undertaken to overcome that difficulty.

Each film becomes a unique work in that respect. It carries that shock. Of that which is seemingly impossible. The use of film. The more rare it becomes the greater the shock on seeing it. The more shocking it becomes.

One works with certain materials because they have a certain intrinsic value - be it related to their rarity, or some other aspect.

Those who continue to work in film, will understand this. They will have an affinity with it. It works well in their hands. Better than some other material. Even if nobody else can tell the difference. They can tell the difference and it's very hard to argue with oneself. Or argue with one's hands.

I still use pen and paper, because there are some problems I just can't solve by any other means. And the same goes for film. It solves certain problems that no other material can.

C

[nikonr10]

We will, perhaps, use film more sparingly, but no less daringly.

Its very difficulty, carries with it, into a work, the very work undertaken to overcome that difficulty.

Each film becomes a unique work in that respect. It carries that shock. Of that which is seemingly impossible. The use of film. The more rare it becomes the greater the shock on seeing it. The more shocking it becomes.

One works with certain materials because they have a certain intrinsic value - be it related to their rarity, or some other aspect.

Those who continue to work in film, will understand this. They will have an affinity with it. It works well in their hands. Better than some other material. Even if nobody else can tell the difference. They can tell the difference and it's very hard to argue with oneself. Or argue with one's hands.

I still use pen and paper, because there are some problems I just can't solve by any other means. And the same goes for film. It solves certain problems that no other material can.

C

Carl /you hit the nail on the head here, It becomes the intrinsic value and why? history for this age is going to fast disappear and with it you can rewrite it how ever you want 1984 ? as all theses digtal moments ie videos stills will go the way of bit rot and in 10 /20 years ! or if you lose your harddrive etc ,
I use film because every time i pick up the camera you make those's shots count and it's aplay of light and shadow and I love mid century craftsmanship
with a deep love for germany cameras and lenses from the history of film makeing and photography ie like Arri / Rollei/ leica ,
Film has never been cheap for me so alway made it count alway a hard blow when you fail .

[nikonr10]

We will, perhaps, use film more sparingly, but no less daringly.

Its very difficulty, carries with it, into a work, the very work undertaken to overcome that difficulty.

Each film becomes a unique work in that respect. It carries that shock. Of that which is seemingly impossible. The use of film. The more rare it becomes the greater the shock on seeing it. The more shocking it becomes.

One works with certain materials because they have a certain intrinsic value - be it related to their rarity, or some other aspect.

Those who continue to work in film, will understand this. They will have an affinity with it. It works well in their hands. Better than some other material. Even if nobody else can tell the difference. They can tell the difference and it's very hard to argue with oneself. Or argue with one's hands.

I still use pen and paper, because there are some problems I just can't solve by any other means. And the same goes for film. It solves certain problems that no other material can.
Not forgeting them french ladys like aaton, beaulieu, and then jappnese 60 , 70 babes of super 8 cameras
C

Carl /you hit the nail on the head here, It becomes the intrinsic value and why? history for this age is going to fast disappear and with it you can rewrite it how ever you want 1984 ? as all theses digtal moments ie videos stills will go the way of bit rot and in 10 /20 years ! or if you lose your harddrive etc ,
I use film because every time i pick up the camera you make those's shots count and it's aplay of light and shadow and I love mid century craftsmanship
with a deep love for germany cameras and lenses from the history of film makeing and photography ie like Arri / Rollei/ leica ,
Film has never been cheap for me so alway made it count alway a hard blow when you fail .

Not forgeting then french ladys , Aaton / Beaulieu /and then Jappnese babies of the 60,s 70,s canon ,nikon in super 8 cameras , none of todays digital cameras will be around like theses old granddames and still working ?
Most of all in intrinsic value! comes down to who eye and hand is doing the work ! ?

[JeremyC]

In answer to BAC's question on regular 8 if Ferrania don't have the time to perf reg 8 while they are getting sales up and running Edward Nowill in Putney in London, as far as I know, is still taking 2R 16mm and reperfing it to Regular 8/Standard 8 for a very reasonable price but if you are in Nth America ("regular 8") that maybe a bit of a long way around but I remember a conversation a few years back with a guy at LIFT in Toronto who told me he mailed stuff to Edward for reperfing.

Everyone, just keep in mind, Ferrania will need to sell enough product, still and cine, to either break even or post an operating profit in the next few years. You and I are crucial to this through buy buying their product plus giving them feedback/intelligence on growing the market and while I have every hope that they will succeed we should be realistic that this is a very dicey undertaking and all kudos to them for risking so much but at the end of the day our love and excitement aint gonna do it for Ferrania its going to be that bell on the till continually ringing.

[marc]

I doubt this Bulgaria factor is still on. Is this current posting?

Now they invest all their energy in re-installing equipment in Italy and supposedly later all should go to Bulgaria?
Who is going to operate the machines in Bulgary. All Italians are about to move to Bulgaria?

The only advantage for some time would be that postal rates and service are more bareable there
And they could set up a processing facility there. It would help a lot if film with processing would
cost a lot less. I.e. together at less than Euro 30.

If you read more carefully you would have understood that he was talking about the warehouses as shipping points, not the manufacturing base.

[carllooper]

In answer to BAC's question on regular 8 if Ferrania don't have the time to perf reg 8 while they are getting sales up and running Edward Nowill in Putney in London, as far as I know, is still taking 2R 16mm and reperfing it to Regular 8/Standard 8 for a very reasonable price but if you are in Nth America ("regular 8") that maybe a bit of a long way around but I remember a conversation a few years back with a guy at LIFT in Toronto who told me he mailed stuff to Edward for reperfing.

Everyone, just keep in mind, Ferrania will need to sell enough product, still and cine, to either break even or post an operating profit in the next few years. You and I are crucial to this through buy buying their product plus giving them feedback/intelligence on growing the market and while I have every hope that they will succeed we should be realistic that this is a very dicey undertaking and all kudos to them for risking so much but at the end of the day our love and excitement aint gonna do it for Ferrania its going to be that bell on the till continually ringing.

I have reperfed 16mm that Edward Nowill undertook a year or so ago, through Nicholas Kovats, who is in Canada. And I'm in Australia. An international effort. Perhaps Nicholas was the one you were talking with. I still haven't exposed it yet. Shamefully. It's for use in an UltraPan8 camera (an 8mm pulldown but the width of a 16mm frame). It's for a project that's now hitting three years in the making (or not making as the case really is). I've had a lot of learning I've needed to do. In particular how to process film! Shooting film is no problem for me. But processing it has been (and remains) something that completely freaks me out! But I've been getting there. Slowly.

The marketplace for film is smaller than it was in the past but by no means insignificant. It should level out rather than drop to zero. I can't see how or why it would drop to zero. But of course what would I know. But then again what would anyone know? Certainly there are risks for Ferrania, but their risk is not in any way reduced by their clients being more "realistic". Indeed I'd like to propose the reverse would be the case. I'd propose the realistic have been leaving the scene in droves. That it is the realistic who have produced the slow motion crisis in film, the last of them belatedly packing their bags. Those remaining, or rejoining (as I have), will be the "unrealists" - those who actually want to buy film. Or who need to buy film. For whatever reason. Not those who are forced to buy film for there won't be many of those left. Rather it will be the mad. The insane. The artists. Who else is there? Even a few in Hollywood (the bastion of bottom lines) are similarly mad.

In other words it will be the lovers and the excited that will do it for Ferrania. And they know it. Their entire marketing campaign is built around such love and excitement. And it seems to be working for them so far. And for the lovers as well. It's a particularly apt handshake. And I'm not surprised because that's the future of film - for there is no other future - it's a future where the lovers and the excited have stormed the gates and taken over the citadel.

This has happened in other media as well. The printing press is a good example. But there are others as well. In the transition from black and white printing to colour in the newspaper industry of the 70s, printing presses were being thrown out in the rubbish bin (so to speak). And out of the rubbish bin such were being moved to a place where those with a particular affinity for such presses would restore such presses and start making something else entirely different with it. Art basically. And selling their work as such. An entirely different economy was being created out of it. And one that finds it's own balance according to the same logic and economic rules that govern any economy. The difference is not in any of these rules but in what is being made and consumed. Its not necessarily a big business. But in some cases it can be. But it's a business nevertheless.

And the power of art is not to be underestimated. Its a mad power and it can provoke the exchange of quite extraordinary amounts of money, and extraordinary amounts of passion and love.

C

[Angus]

The marketplace for film is smaller than it was in the past but by no means insignificant. It should level out rather than drop to zero. I can't see how or why it would drop to zero.

In other words it will be the lovers and the excited that will do it for Ferrania. And they know it. Their entire marketing campaign is built around such love and excitement.

I think the people behind Film Ferrania feel, probably correctly, that the film market has now entered a new phase. The mass migration from film to digital in the mainstream is likely complete. The people continuing with film are doing so out of choice and will continue to make that choice, be they enthusiastic amateurs or professionals...be they shooting exclusively on film or using it occasionally for a specific look. The market will stabilise shortly if it hasn't already.

We love film, for varying reasons but we love it and we love film cameras. I've reintroduced B&W still film into a lot of my amateur photography in the last 12 months after not really doing much for a few years. But Ilford, and to a lesser extent Kodak & Foma have that market sewn up...with some other niche products. Film Ferrania correctly have identified the big gap as colour reversal film, as supplies have dried up...especially with regard to small gauge motion picture film.

As for reg 8mm, I can see them producing some in the future. But as they say, some demand has to be there. However it's relatively easy. They can perf it, and the spools are still being produced...and a spool is a lot cheaper than a super 8 cart. There is a smaller market than 16 or super 8 but there are still people shooting reg 8mm. Heck I do from time to time.

As with all things, patience. Progress, not perfection. Ferrania will start with their 100ASA colour reversal film in four formats. It will be improved. There will be other products and other formats....I just hope nobody gets angry because they're not producing 6ASA ortho film in some obscure format that only a handful of people use, or 3200ASA colour neg film for 110 instamatics.

[Tscan]

I don't see why they wouldn't eventually. They make it very clear that their first intention is to produce a chrome for the niche that is left for it. There are probably enough reg 8mm users out there longing for a color reversal to make a reasonable dent in the production of it.

[BAC]

I don't see why they wouldn't eventually. They make it very clear that their first intention is to produce a chrome for the niche that is left for it. There are probably enough reg 8mm users out there longing for a color reversal to make a reasonable dent in the production of it.

Like I said, I think we just have to make ourselves known.