DS8 film stock

[bolextech]

Dear Forum members,

For your information, I have very recently made inquiries with Kodak Canada and Kodak USA about this very issue of a special order of DS8. The stock chosen for discussion was Vision3 50D color negative. While no specific quantities were discussed, a starting price of $25,000 USD has been mentioned for such an order. Based on current Kodak pricing structure, I estimate that this is the conservative equivalent of approximately 40000 feet of DS8 stock or 400 100 ft. rolls of DS8 on daylight spool. Can all the world’s users of DS8 consume this amount of stock in the next two to three years?

The final price you may ask? Estimate from $70 to $80 for 100 ft. spools of DS8. Since there are no DS8 color stocks on the market at this time except Kahl Germany’s offerings to compare prices with, we can compare with the price of four 50 foot cartridges of 50D. Kodak’s catalog price is currently $23.60. You can do the math.

Also, further efforts can be made to convince Kodak to agree to a lower minimum quantity for an order or perhaps to split the order into various negative stocks.

One last advantage about DS8 stock is that, if need be, at any time you can have the film slit and produce regular super8 stock for loading in standard refillable cartridges.

If Kodak would deliver DS8 stock, it will be of perfect (e.g. Kodak level) quality for sure.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who would like to use the DS8 negative stocks and perhaps give me an idea of their potential usage. Thank you!

Jean-Louis Seguin

[aj]

The minimum order is not a production restriction. As Wittner explained (and as I posted here) Kodak produces all S8 from DS8 600 meter rolls. It is an internal Kodak standard product. Confectioning is the thing to get going. From their stock of DS8 masters rolls. They need to take a number of rolls and cut these to length for 30/33ft, 100ft or 400ft.

Would you drop in at Kodak on a 50D confection day I suppose you could be thrown a pancake of 600 meter of 50D without it taking more than 30 seconds.

Wittner declared that as long there would be S8 there would DS8. Unfortunetaly they don't list long rolls or 200ft filled spools anylonger. According to an acquaintance they will sell on demand/request.

Having DS8 rolls would open a number of options. DS8 filming of course but also the rolls could be used for Single-8 fills or 200ft SD8-Beaulieu spools. So having 50D in DS8 would sure be a good thing.

I have, among too many others , a TriFilmatic with DS8 back and have used it with FOMApan in DS8 and some old Svema.
Shooting color would be fun too. It is an ideal machine for reportage and it looks very filmy too.

Organizing a collective buy is a risk and a chore. For the organizer and the buyers. I recall from the early forumdays this Australian Francis guy who took considerable money from several people here and never delivered a foot of film.

I suppose mr Schwind knows best what to expect in potential sales.

[bolextech]

Yes, you would think it would be easy for Kodak to "throw us a pancake" but apparently this is not how they work. I am told that before a product is released for sale, it must be rigourously tested and packaged and identified, etc, etc.... They will not do this for small amounts. Perhaps if you are good buddies with the Director of Manufacturing, you could get by with this!

Jean-Louis

[James E]

I just acquired a C-300, but with only S8 Back. I will be hunting down all the others over time. I'm not a big fan of neg, but having seen a great deal of 50D used in finished films, It's the one I'd be most interested in having.
Cheers,

[aj]

It seems Wittner is considering perforating some rolls of 200D 16mm into DS8
http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/neu/index.php
It would then cost the same as R8 (Euro 70 incl tax for 100ft)

E100D in S8 cartridge is now to cost Euro 40 incl tax
As do other reversal S8 types.

Things are getting out of hand.
Let us hope Ferrania materializes something soon.
And then a distribution without the help of Wittner.

[JeremyC]

Jean Louis,

This is a really welcome idea, thanks for taking the time to approach Kodak and research it, I have a DS8 Bolex and very fortunately some 100D DS8 stock in the fridge but I've always wondered about what neg in DS8 would give. I've emailed Wittner a couple of times asking if they would consider selling neg DS8 stock made via reperfing, their reply has been that its a good idea but they have too many things on at that moment, I can understand that as it must be difficult to determine if there is any market for neg DS8, for instance from your work and perspective how many DS8 cameras would you estimate are out there? Apart from my Bolex here in London there is the guy who sold it to me who has one and an artist up Manchester way but I have a very, very limited knowledge of who does what in the UK. There must still be at least a couple of hundred working DS8 cameras 'out there' or am I being too optimistic?

I guess I would be good for, perhaps, up to 4 rolls over a couple of years, as my shooting is very much part time at the moment. When I read your post I was wondering what the market might be and broke it down in my head as, say, 5 rolls per person over two years or so and you said it would be 400 rolls so perhaps an international market comprising up to 100 people across two years? Is this be a possible way to look at it, forgive me if you have gone over and over this sort of calculation during your time of dealing with Kodak? There would also be storage costs, perhaps fixed and included in the pricing, but distributions costs would be as required. Your approximate pricing sounds reasonable.

Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't processing be easier than for S8 as it should be easier to persuade a lab to attach a 100 ft 16 mm wide roll to a run than a bunch of S8 carts which involves more preparation work? Here in the UK a friend who shoots 16 told me the lab he uses is very happy to take 100 ft rolls from him for processing and there are slitters for sale on Ebay so it would still require a bit of work on the part of the user but thats nothing to the possible opportunity of working with neg DS8.

If S8 is on the way out then, perversely, this just might be a good time for this idea to be realised as it can ride on the back of people's concerns and discussions about the future of S8.

You wouldn't only have to rely on forums such as this for a word of mouth distribution, if John Schwind and Wittner could be persuaded to carry it I guess that would push it further especially given how well John Schwind is known, even here in London. Would they see a market for it? Then the likes of LIFT in Toronto, Dwaynes, etc. However distribution would require a lot of work, in fact the whole thing would be a lot of work as pointed out above so Jean Louis many kudos to you in putting this idea out and perhaps the work load could be partnered out.

[bolextech]

Thanks for your detailed reply Jeremy.

I've only had a couple of replies so far so it's still early to judge.

A few mentioned: "great idea but how am I going to get prints made?"

So not everyone is keen on digitizing their footage; projection is still popular also.

Everyone wishes that Kodachrome would come back but that's not going to happen.

If Wittner decides to put out their Avichrome, that's great for some but you can't compare Avichrome with 50D.

Jean-Louis

[JeremyC]

Jean-louis,

How would you go about covering the $25,000 plus admin and storage costs especially if it was done over a couple of years? Could enough money be raised from a number of sources including individual orders and larger orders from the Wittners, Dwaynes of this world (assuming they thought they could sell such stock) upfront combined with a group of people buying 'shares' in some sort of entity where they get their money back after all the rolls are sold? Perhaps Crowdfunding? Perhaps those who buy shares get the opportunity to buy rolls 'at cost'?

Its hard to figure what would work.

[Tscan]

If I hadn't gotten rid of my Scoopic DS8 after E100D was gone, I'd be all over some DS8 50D. I don't see a problem selling it because anyone who is holding onto a DS8 camera will want to shoot it. V3 50D in DS8 is about as could as S8 can get at the moment.

[bolextech]

Jean-louis,

How would you go about covering the $25,000 plus admin and storage costs especially if it was done over a couple of years? Could enough money be raised from a number of sources including individual orders and larger orders from the Wittners, Dwaynes of this world (assuming they thought they could sell such stock) upfront combined with a group of people buying 'shares' in some sort of entity where they get their money back after all the rolls are sold? Perhaps Crowdfunding? Perhaps those who buy shares get the opportunity to buy rolls 'at cost'?

Its hard to figure what would work.

Yes, crowdfunding is certainly an interesting way to go. Shareholders would in essence be making a "deposit" on later purchases. And yes, getting film at "cost" could be an added incentive.
I doubt very much that professional resellers like Wittner, etc. would participate in such a venture. However, in the 24 hours since I made my post, curiously there has been movement on Wittner's part towards DS8 in color reversal form: http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/neu/index.php
Coincidence??

Jean-Louis

[JeremyC]

Thats well and good if you have spurred Wittner on, but I would guess they have been thinking about their 200d in DS8 for a while given that they are selling off their old perforators and splitting machines so perhaps now they are able to concentrate on selling it again. But then again perhaps you did spur them on........

I would love DS8 in neg and 50d is a good idea because it can be stored longer but would something like 200T have a wider usage so you could gather a wider market? Though I've spoken with a number of DOPs recently who have used 50d in situations not suited for it and were not expecting to get any detail in the shadows and have been surprised by how much they got.

[James E]

With Wittner the major problem for those of us on the western side of the pond is the $CAD and U$D to Euro conversion.. Murderous!
Today $1 US = €0.74 $1 CAD= €0.68 An €40 cart of E100D = $54.40 + Shipping.... CAD $58.51 YIKES! :!: :?: :roll: 8O
I'm all for bulk film purchases on this side of the pond.
Cheers,

[bolextech]

To be fair, the price you quoted for E100D is the one for inside Europe with 19% VAT included.
The price without tax is €33.53 which would be $45.60 USD or $49.05 CAD. Still, pretty expensive.

JL

[Mana]

I'd be down for at least 400ft! Still have some 100d! Also happy I can get Fomapan still, just wish it was 100ft rolls!

[aj]

Thats well and good if you have spurred Wittner on, but I would guess they have been thinking about their 200d in DS8 for a while given that they are selling off their old perforators and splitting machines so perhaps now they are able to concentrate on selling it again. But then again perhaps you did spur them on........

Wittner is not selling off anything. It is their strategic decision to have all equipment in house to confection any format from wide rolls. As long as there is emulsion on a ciné suitable bearer there will be Wittner cut film.

Wittner had a newsletter out mentioning the arrival of 200D raw rolls and S8 preparation from that quick. Which is last week. It is a bit unlikely that they got the testing the waters idea from this forum, or any other. Especially with vacation break start ahead for this weekend.

You are overestimating the current reach of this forum. It is next to zero. This thread has some 200 views which are mostly from search-engines and a limited set of forummembers checking on their writings. I.e 10 views per post with 10 peope posting. Outside views are one or two and possibly zero.