Digital Projection still Iffy

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reflex
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Post by reflex »

David M. Leugers wrote:I made another trek to the theater to see "There Will Be Blood". I couldn't help myself. 8) I knew I would never forgive myself not seeing this film on the big screen. Full cinemascope-sized wide screen with an incredibly lush and subtle 35mm film print.
BUT...

"There Will Be Blood" was scanned at 2K for editing and color grading. That's 2048 x 1080 pixels -- about the same as an HD television set (1920 x 1080). Once it was edited, those "horrifically ugly" digital pixels were printed back onto film using an ARRI Laser film recorder. The resulting film was then copied several additional times before being projected on a massive screen at the local cineplex, leading you to enthuse how incredibly lush and subtle it was.

With this kind of dismal but relatively cheap hybrid work flow, the only advantages the Cineplex has over a good HD television set is that the 2K DI scan was done at a very high color depth and that there's no additional compression to cram it onto a Blu-ray Disc.

You have to step back in time before the widespread use of digital intermediates to see 'real film' projected in a theater.
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Post by James E »

I recently watched National TreasureII "In DLP". Suffice to say I summerize the quality of the projection thusly. IT B L O W S! I could not have possibly been less impressed. Bright outdoor sceens that normally are sharp and bright were the absolute worse looking and truely showed the DLP's weakness. Nasty grainy and BLOWN OUT. If the movie screen was 1/10th the size it might, might have looked good.
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Post by Freya »

reflex wrote:
David M. Leugers wrote:I made another trek to the theater to see "There Will Be Blood". I couldn't help myself. 8) I knew I would never forgive myself not seeing this film on the big screen. Full cinemascope-sized wide screen with an incredibly lush and subtle 35mm film print.
BUT...

"There Will Be Blood" was scanned at 2K for editing and color grading. That's 2048 x 1080 pixels -- about the same as an HD television set (1920 x 1080). Once it was edited, those "horrifically ugly" digital pixels were printed back onto film using an ARRI Laser film recorder. The resulting film was then copied several additional times before being projected on a massive screen at the local cineplex, leading you to enthuse how incredibly lush and subtle it was.

You have to step back in time before the widespread use of digital intermediates to see 'real film' projected in a theater.
There will be blood was printed optically with no digital intermediate:

http://www.ascmag.com/magazine_dynamic/ ... /page2.php

I'm not sure where you got the 2k thing from but there are some digital effects in a couple of places that could possibly have been done at 2k, I don't know, but mostly the film is a good old fashioned optically printed anamorphic 35mm film.

The vast majority of films are still printed optically, as it is much cheaper than a D.I. and a lot of productions can't afford D.I., so most films out there are shot and printed photochemically.

You are right that 2k has been very common for low end digital itermediate work although this is now starting to change as facilities get upgraded to 4k.

love

Freya
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Post by matt5791 »

sorry - double post
Last edited by matt5791 on Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by matt5791 »

synthnut wrote:The thing with digital projection, no matter how good the projector, is that the image is going to be "dead" It might not have any weave, scratches, dust (no it probably will have some dust and some dead pixels too) and it won't go out of focus on the splices that it doesn't have. It can have 35 trillion colours and be a 2K 3-chip DLP, but the brain will allways be affected diferently by film projection as the method of delivery is totally diferent. Resolution, saturation and focus aside, the subtle (OK, not in most 8mm) grain motion caused by projecting a series of film frames creates a life in an image that digital projectors just don't. The grain motion of film may be almost subliminal, but a slide shot or freeze frame will look completely diferent if projected digitally, i.e. it will appear static and lifeless. This phenomenon has now been recognized by the digital media hardware industry and some are now developing ways of introducing noise back into the digitally generated image to try and get around this! The problem is also that if you do this, the noise has a very digital nature. With film the grain has an infinite positional freedom (ignore resolving powers, grains can be in an infinite number of differing arangements frame on frame) compared to a set X by Y matrix of a digital projectors image devices. You just can't replicate the effect with this sort of technology currently.
We use a number of quite high-end LCD projectors in my line of work and whilst they can look quite punchy and bright, watching movies on them never feels the same as seeing a film in the conventional manner. (no popcorn and noisey punters comments!)
Then there is the whole economic thing.
I had one client asking for advice on a projector for their theatre/cinema as the previous owner had removed it's 35mm Xenon unit and cake stand before they took it on. They were looking for a 6m wide screen and seemed to think that they could project from DVDs and somehow punters would be happy in the front rows! I explained that it would be cheaper and simpler to just pick up a serviced used 35mm system. They answered, but aren't they old fashioned, surely all the cinemas are digital now? :roll:
I recounted some tales of what can happen if a conventional projector breaks down and how rare this was and that fixes were usually fairly simple. I then mentioned breakdowns of digital projectors at the price bracket that they needed and how it would nearly allways mean another projector. When you think about it, you get a whole new light valve panel with every 35mm frame. How much would Christie or Barco charge for 129600 DLP chips... (OK, I know that's daft) :D

To quote wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_cinema)
"While a theater can purchase a film projector for US$50,000 and expect an average life of 30–40 years, a digital cinema playback system including server/media block/and projector can cost 3–4 times as much, and is at higher risk for component failures and technological obsolescence. Experience with computer-based media systems show that average economic lifetimes are only on the order of 5 years with some units lasting until about 10 years before they are replaced"

One can argue until your blue in the face about resolutions, but personally I think the last thing I want to watch is a totally digital workflow, way too sterile. You can see in so much production the injection of grain effects etc to try and overcome this shortcomming of the "ideal" of digital.
Now, then there's compression and all the evils that entails, but that's a whole 'nother rant! :wink: Ben
Well put - I'm going to cut and past this into somewhere so I can print it out and give it to people who don't understand why I hate digital projection.

Thanks - very handy.

Matt
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Post by mattias »

digital projection is fantastic. the point of projection is to show images, and if technology lets us see images that we wouldn't otherwise see it's secondary how "organic" or whatever it looks, in my humble opinion. it's way too expensive to distribute film prints, which is a huge problem today. so people who like projection supposedly like to project themselves, which they can continue doing, or they like to see hollywood blockbusters in theaters, which i'm sure they can continue to do for quite some time. the rest of us want to see great movies, and digital projection *is* better than imported dvd's or worse nothing at all. btw this is not a dream, it's happened with festivals since several years and many art house cinemas have been able to survive because of it. and my films have gotten seen by more people just as i've been able to see more films by them.

/matt
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Post by reflex »

Freya wrote:I'm not sure where you got the 2k thing from but there are some digital effects in a couple of places that could possibly have been done at 2k, I don't know, but mostly the film is a good old fashioned optically printed anamorphic 35mm film.
Well, I'm willing to eat some crow. :oops:

I took my comments from the crew credits, which includes some 2K work (more than likely for the special effects).

Less than 50% of major Hollywood films used DI in 2005, but I suspect that the vast majority of big budget films were DI'd in 2007. It has been an extremely quick transition.
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Post by matt5791 »

mattias wrote:digital projection is fantastic. the point of projection is to show images, and if technology lets us see images that we wouldn't otherwise see it's secondary how "organic" or whatever it looks, in my humble opinion. it's way too expensive to distribute film prints, which is a huge problem today. so people who like projection supposedly like to project themselves, which they can continue doing, or they like to see hollywood blockbusters in theaters, which i'm sure they can continue to do for quite some time. the rest of us want to see great movies, and digital projection *is* better than imported dvd's or worse nothing at all. btw this is not a dream, it's happened with festivals since several years and many art house cinemas have been able to survive because of it. and my films have gotten seen by more people just as i've been able to see more films by them.

/matt
I absolutely agree with you, that when it comes to being able to place films in front of audiences who would not have otherwise have seen them, digital projection is a considerable advantage to avoid the huge cost of film prints

From my personal point of view, I prefer the look and feel of traditional projection - the cost is irrelevant, I'm just saying I prefer it - in other words "in an ideal world"
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Post by Will2 »

matt5791 wrote:...when it comes to being able to place films in front of audiences who would not have otherwise have seen them, digital projection is a considerable advantage to avoid the huge cost of film prints
There's been a growth in "art house" theatres in the U.S. that only show small independent films. There are two in Dallas, the Magnolia and the Angelica. These are very new, clean & modern theatres. Each has at least one digital projector for just such films (or if they get rented out for corporate presentations).

I guess my point is that these projectors are available now in just the type of theatres that would play small budget films. This is really good news for artists and cities all over have these available.

If money is made off these movies they could decide if it makes business or artistic sense to create prints later on.
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Post by T-Scan »

There's no doubt that DI is a great thing, and digital projection can be of good quality, under the right circumstances. I just think that people need to start learning how to use them. 9 times out of 10, there is a heavy blue or magenta cast, and random combo of other technical faux pas. It's great that film makers have this convienance, but you may also find yourself wishing you would have stayed on you-tube. I love DI and making DVD's. Plan to keep doing it. i've been using the little 1.4GB mini DVD's and my S8 looks awsome on any device, except digital projection in the wrong hands. I'm going to stick more with raw projections for now, 16mm reversal and prints.
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Post by David M. Leugers »

All I know is what my eyes tell me. Without knowing how the prints were made for "There Will Be Blood", I could see the difference from the digitally projected films I have seen in the past year. It is like the difference between Coke and Pepsi. I could always tell the difference even though there are those who say that is crap. If digital projection was better than film, I'd be all for it. For me, it is not. However, there is definitely good uses for it. Like Mattias says, it has been a boom for the Art houses and independent film makers all around the world. I however will always remember seeing a short B+W 16mm film at the Ann Arbor Film Festival 20 years ago projected on a huge screen with no sound that totally blew me away. It was an exercise in exploring the beauty of black and white photography. I just can't see the same film projected digitally today having the same effect. But, like the difference between Coke and Pepsi, many will not see the difference.


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Post by MovieStuff »

reflex wrote:
Freya wrote:I'm not sure where you got the 2k thing from but there are some digital effects in a couple of places that could possibly have been done at 2k, I don't know, but mostly the film is a good old fashioned optically printed anamorphic 35mm film.
Well, I'm willing to eat some crow. :oops:

I took my comments from the crew credits, which includes some 2K work (more than likely for the special effects).
Actually, the fact that some of the film had DI and other parts did not only reinforces your whole point. It would be less surprising to me if a film afficiado was fooled by an all DI print, since there would be no point of reference on how non-DI material would have looked. But if someone that really, really prefers film projection can't see the difference when DI and non-DI material are cut back to back in the same film, then that only shows how far digital has come. Once digital projectors can reproduce the level of quality that we see in DI's, I think the days of 35mm projection will be numbered.

Roger
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Post by Mitch Perkins »

Freya wrote:
reflex wrote:
David M. Leugers wrote:I made another trek to the theater to see "There Will Be Blood". I couldn't help myself. 8) I knew I would never forgive myself not seeing this film on the big screen. Full cinemascope-sized wide screen with an incredibly lush and subtle 35mm film print.
BUT...

"There Will Be Blood" was scanned at 2K for editing and color grading. [...]

You have to step back in time before the widespread use of digital intermediates to see 'real film' projected in a theater.
There will be blood was printed optically with no digital intermediate:

http://www.ascmag.com/magazine_dynamic/ ... /page2.php

love

Freya
Heehee. "American Gangster", too -

"During preproduction, the filmmakers decided to finish the picture photochemically - 'no digital intermediate [DI], nothing artificial', says the cinematographer."

Get back out to the theater, David. ~:?)

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Post by Mitch Perkins »

MovieStuff wrote:
reflex wrote:
Freya wrote:I'm not sure where you got the 2k thing from but there are some digital effects in a couple of places that could possibly have been done at 2k, I don't know, but mostly the film is a good old fashioned optically printed anamorphic 35mm film.
Well, I'm willing to eat some crow. :oops:

I took my comments from the crew credits, which includes some 2K work (more than likely for the special effects).
Actually, the fact that some of the film had DI and other parts did not only reinforces your whole point. It would be less surprising to me if a film afficiado was fooled by an all DI print, since there would be no point of reference on how non-DI material would have looked. But if someone that really, really prefers film projection can't see the difference when DI and non-DI material are cut back to back in the same film, then that only shows how far digital has come.
Except that no one has asked David, "did you notice any funny looking bits?"

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Post by MovieStuff »

Mitch Perkins wrote:
Except that no one has asked David, "did you notice any funny looking bits?"

Mitch
True. But then, again, would he purposely ignore "funny looking bits" in his review just because he thought what he was watching was all film with no DI? ;)

With all respect to David, I have found that some anti-digital enthusiasts tend to overlook any inherent flaws in film orginated material while always managing to point out the slightest transgressions of digital. It's a human-thing to do, obviously, and we're all guilty of supporting our bias but I still think that having DI and non-DI material cut back to back in the same film is a pretty gutsy move and, if it passes the smell test of a true hard core film enthusiast like David, then that's a measure worth noting.

Roger
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