Cameras that can meter for a correctly notched 100D cart

[Jim Carlile]

The reason that I have a hard time understanding this is because any Super 8 camera I have ever used has the 100T/64D option. While there may be many that don't, I still feel that there are significant number that do. But, as I said before, I tend towards the cameras from the early to mid 70's and while there may not have only been one 100T stock produced in super 8, these said cameras were designed to handle it. Was there ever a 100D produced in a Super 8 cartridge?

Just the new Plus-X, which is notched according to the SMPTE standard.

Yeah, many the earlier cameras were designed to run a full range of films speeds. Later, only the more expensive ones did. That's because it became clear that not all the notches would be utilized.

The rule for 100D is: if the camera is expensive, it will run it, whether it is SMPTE notched or non-traditional. Or better yet, if your camera will run 64T exactly, it will run 100D, because it can set the meter to all of the lower film speeds... I can't think of one that won't....

[mattias]

Apparently, what I have gathered in the past several days ( and I could still be wrong), is that a true 100D nothced cart actually has an ASA notch for 160T

so the notch is the same size as the one on 160t carts, but that doesn't mean that it has a 160 asa notch. why don't you say that 160t carts are notched as 100 asa instead?

is an a string a d string but thicker, or is it simply an a string? they are the exact same length so what do i know? ;-)

/matt

[Muckymuck]

The cartridge notch ruler on the Super 8 wiki makes it quite clear. There is no one fixed ISO speed to each length of notch. Instead...

The 100D notch length IS the same as the 160T notch length.

The 64D notch length IS the same as the 100T notch length.

The 40D notch length IS the same as the 64T notch length.

What determines how the camera reads the notch and thus meters is

a) The position of the filter switch
b) (If the camera has a lower notch reader pin) Whether the cartridge has a lower filter notch.

Basic stuff.

Wittner carts are notched at 64D/100T, therefore, the only way to get a camera which reads all film speeds to meter for 100 ISO without filter correctly is to remove the filter using the filter switch (ie set it to tungsten) so it thinks the film is 100T.

[mattias]

The cartridge notch ruler on the Super 8 wiki makes it quite clear. There is no one fixed ISO speed to each length of notch.

that's what i meant. saying that 100d carts are notched 160 asa and that 160t carts are notched 100 asa just doesn't make sense. why people think the first does but would never dream of the latter is beyond me.

/matt

[marc]

The cartridge notch ruler on the Super 8 wiki makes it quite clear. There is no one fixed ISO speed to each length of notch.

that's what i meant. saying that 100d carts are notched 160 asa and that 160t carts are notched 100 asa just doesn't make sense. why people think the first does but would never dream of the latter is beyond me.

/matt

And that is also what I was saying. Maybe not in words that please your sense of literary excellence, but most people are able to read between the lines.

[mattias]

saying that 100d carts are notched 160 asa and that 160t carts are notched 100 asa just doesn't make sense. why people think the first does but would never dream of the latter is beyond me.

And that is also what I was saying.

with all due respect that's exactly what you were not saying. you said exactly what i'm complaining about above. please don't take it personal though. the only reason i'm pushing this is because i think this is the main reason this subject is so confusing to so many people. it's exactly like when people say that a 50mm lens "becomes" a 100mm lens on 16mm. i never had a problem understanding what they meant, but boy is the confusion it creates annoying.

most people are able to read between the lines.

that is all good after you've actually grasped the literal meaning. ;-)

/matt

[marc]

Apparently, what I have gathered in the past several days ( and I could still be wrong), is that a true 100D nothced cart actually has an ASA notch for 160T

/matt[/quote]

The 100D notch length IS the same as the 160T notch length.

.

so the notch is the same size as the one on 160t carts, but that doesn't mean that it has a 160 asa notch. why don't you say that 160t carts are notched as 100 asa instead?.

It sounds the same to me. It is just a matter of picky semantics. Maybe in your language words have to be more accurate or "mathematical". In English, many analogies are acceptable.

[bakanosaru]

I wrote:

Apparently, what I have gathered in the past several days ( and I could still be wrong), is that a true 100D nothced cart actually has an ASA notch for 160T

I think it's your use of actually (meaning "really") that would cause confusion.
100D is not actually notched 160T, it is notched 100D. Equally 160T is not notched 100D. The film speed notch size is the same, but one is not notched the other nor vice versa.

[Muckymuck]

Does anyone have any more cameras which can be added to the list? I think we're losing sight of it.

[marc]

I wrote:

Apparently, what I have gathered in the past several days ( and I could still be wrong), is that a true 100D nothced cart actually has an ASA notch for 160T

I think it's your use of actually (meaning "really") that would cause confusion.
100D is not actually notched 160T, it is notched 100D. Equally 160T is not notched 100D. The film speed notch size is the same, but one is not notched the other nor vice versa.

It's still picky!

[Jim Carlile]

I wrote:

Apparently, what I have gathered in the past several days ( and I could still be wrong), is that a true 100D nothced cart actually has an ASA notch for 160T

I think it's your use of actually (meaning "really") that would cause confusion.
100D is not actually notched 160T, it is notched 100D. Equally 160T is not notched 100D. The film speed notch size is the same, but one is not notched the other nor vice versa.

I think there's some general confusion here. 160T and 100D are the same notch size. Each speed indice has two film speeds associated with it, a higher and a lower, 2/3 of an f/stop apart. 160T is indeed notched the same as 100D. What matters is the position of the filter pin in SMPTE cameras, determined by whether or not there is a filter notch in the cartridge. A notchless cartridge triggers the 100D complement of the film speed indice.

100D is not notched the same as 100T. The latter notch is smaller, and can only be precisely read by cameras that can read the full range of odd, lesser used speed indices. To notch a 100D film using the 100T notched cartridge is a non-traditional use, and it 'violates' the SMPTE standard for speed notchings and daylight films. This can present some serious problems in cameras that will not read the 100T/64D speed indice, and there are many of these.

So in order to determine what cameras will read 100D film, you first have to know how the cartridge is notched by each manufacturer. For now, the rule of thumb is that advanced cameras that can read the full range of speed indices will be able to read all variations of 100D. The big question is-- what about the moderately priced, mid-70's and after cameras?

[marc]

I wrote:

I think it's your use of actually (meaning "really") that would cause confusion.
100D is not actually notched 160T, it is notched 100D. Equally 160T is not notched 100D. The film speed notch size is the same, but one is not notched the other nor vice versa.

I think there's some general confusion here. 160T and 100D are the same notch size. Each speed indice has two film speeds associated with it, a higher and a lower, 2/3 of an f/stop apart. 160T is indeed notched the same as 100D. What matters is the position of the filter pin in SMPTE cameras, determined by whether or not there is a filter notch in the cartridge. A notchless cartridge triggers the 100D complement of the film speed indice.?

I am pretty sure that can be extrapolated from my less than stellar use of words. And although many here want to pick apart words, I am guessing that you know what I mean.

100D is not notched the same as 100T. The latter notch is smaller, and can only be precisely read by cameras that can read the full range of odd, lesser used speed indices. To notch a 100D film using the 100T notched cartridge is a non-traditional use, and it 'violates' the SMPTE standard for speed notchings and daylight films. This can present some serious problems in cameras that will not read the 100T/64D speed indice, and there are many of these..

This is the fact that I have come to learn over the past several days. And I admit that this is where my knowledge was lacking and down right erroneous.

[Jim Carlile]

No, you've grasped it really well-- there's just been general confusion about this for years all over the place. Even the old filmaking magazines got it wrong.

Here's some more camera specifics about 100D that I'll repost. I'm gonna check out the Elmo sound cameras this weekend-- I'm pretty sure they will read SMPTE notched 100D films, and there are many of these Elmos around:

--------------

These cameras will all read the plain/jane 100T/64D speed indice:

-Kodak M-4
-All the big 800/1000 Canons
-All the Beaulieus, except the 1008 (tested on this?)
-All the Nizos except possibly the cheaper silver ones
-Most cameras made before 1973, when films stocks were plentiful (many of these will read all the SMPTE film speed indices, even for those speeds in which films were never available.)

With the exception of the M-4, all of the above will also accurately read the full 160T/100D speed indice, for those notchless-cartridge daylight ASA 100 films that are speed-notched at this size (the SMPTE standard for a 100D film.) This includes the new Plus-X.

What to watch out for? Printed specs from manufacturers that claim daylight film ASAs. Many of these are unreliable. They only mean that the camera can meter films with the 85 filter in place-- the effective lower ASA only.

[marc]

No, you've grasped it really well-- there's just been general confusion about this for years all over the place. Even the old filmaking magazines got it wrong.

Thanks Jim. I appreciate your patience, integrity and good will in explaining it in such a humane way. I guess some people just have the knack for doing that.

[Matthew Buick]

Does anyone know whether the Canon 814XL-S measures 64D/100T correctly?

EDIT: Oops! I just noticed Jim Carlile's above post. Sorry all. Sorry Jim. Quite tired you see .