Extention tubes... or macro lens

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audadvnc
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Post by audadvnc »

ccortez wrote:Something like this?
A good DXC-637 would be a great camera. But I would hesitate on buying a professional level camera the seller refuses to plug in to test. I had a Sony M-7 camera's CCD fail; the listed replacement cost was $3500; way more than the camera was worth. Repairs and alignment on pro gear are always full price, no matter what you paid up front.

Check with local video houses and TV stations for old working gear; sometime they "garage sale" it out for very cheap, just to clear up space.
Robert Hughes
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Post by Sparky »

I spoke to the very helpful area manager of Optem UK and found out some more. What I have really is a zoom lens but I have been using it wrong- the ring I have been using to focus should be for zooming :roll: . I need to put a 146.5mm tube between it and the camera. The lens then should have a fixed focusing distance of 89mm from its snout and will have a field of view with a 2/3 CCD of 1.6x1.2mm - 11.7x8.7mm ( 0.91x0.68mm - 6.3x4.7mm with 1/3" ccd). BUT the camera c-mount flange would be 333.3mm from the gate 8O. However the iris would work and the lens is quoted as having 200 lpmm resolution min. The guy was amazed that I had got an image at all, but I'm trying to imagine how I will possibly get an image with it that far from the gate! Thats a long macro tube!

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Post by AKIO »

Fred,

There are the finest lenses for 5mega pixel ccd (very expensive!).
http://www.uniel-denshi.co.jp/CCTV-LENS ... PIXEL.html

However, I don't think that using the lense makes pictures better.
I tried some lenses (25, 35, 75mm), finally I also decided on inexpensive 35mm.

Now, I'm trying both "macro capturing like you (my cam is the same as yours)" and "using condenser lens like Workprinter".
I compare these, often the images using condenser lens are better.
I think the reason is I could use 3 chip ccd DVcam (not an effect of condenser lens).

(Here is my web site, there are some pictures.)
http://9.dee.cc/~retroscope/home.html

Someday, I would try to use a 3 chip C-mount camera.

best regards

AKIO
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Post by Sparky »

You are using a good diffuser for your back light source?
Fred, what effect does the backlight diffusion have on the image quality and why? I thought a diffuse source was better for scratches but a more direct source sharper? I know Clive Tobin offers different sources for his units but don't really understand the physics- anyone know?

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Post by Sparky »

Nice setup Akio!
Your lens does seem to be letting you down- the edges of your frames go very soft.
That alignment rig is a work of art- I want one!

Mark
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audadvnc
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Post by audadvnc »

Sparky wrote:
You are using a good diffuser for your back light source?
Fred, what effect does the backlight diffusion have on the image quality and why? I thought a diffuse source was better for scratches but a more direct source sharper? I know Clive Tobin offers different sources for his units but don't really understand the physics- anyone know?

Mark
I believe that, similar to the use of direct vrs diffused light in photo print enlargers, you have some contrast control by selecting your source. Also, diffused light sources tend to "fill in" scratches and abrasions on film base surfaces, thus obviating the need for wet gates for films with minor scuffing.
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Post by Sparky »

Thanks Audadvnc, but I still don't get it.
According to Clive Tobins site:
The original model TVT-8 is not recommended for old film as the condensed light gives a brutally sharp transfer quality that exaggerates small scratches and emulsion flaws that are not objectionable in ordinary projection. Since abused film is mostly what is received for transfer, this series is now de-emphasized in favor of the other two models.
So how does a diffused light source improve this? Is it that because it comes out in all directions it kind of catches off the edges of the scratches and blurrs them? Would a diffuse light source cause blurring in non-scratched film? Is there some theory to be read about this (still enlargers or whatever?)

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Post by MovieStuff »

Sparky wrote: So how does a diffused light source improve this?
Hold your hand in front of a point light source, like a bare bulb with the lamp shade off. Doing so projects a nice, sharp image on the wall, like doing shadow puppets. Place the lamp shade on over the bulb and, suddenly, you have no sharp shadows of your hand. In a sense, the same thing happens when you switch from a focused light source to a diffused light source behind the film. The scratches represent an interruption in the straight rays of the focused light source; the rays can not go "straight through" them because the slanted edges of the scratch deflect the light. The blocking of this light exagerates their visibility. But if you use a diffused light source, then you no longer have focused light being interrupted and the light enters the scratch from a variety of directions. You see the scratch but not so much the walls of the scratch.

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Post by Sparky »

Thanks Roger- so would a non-diffused source with good film produce a noticeably sharper image than a diffused source? And how would you maintain an even illumination without diffusion?

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Post by MovieStuff »

Sparky wrote:Thanks Roger- so would a non-diffused source with good film produce a noticeably sharper image than a diffused source?
That's debatable. Many old timers in optical printing work feel a focused light source is better but much of that is based on long established ways of working with film duplication that dates back to the 30's. Remember, no LEDs back then! To keep the light source bright but cool, a smaller lamp was used and a condenser lens was employed to enlarge the bulb to a size that would encompass the entire film frame. For the longest time, all optical printers were built this way but, over time, many found that using a diffused light source with superior optics was just as sharp.

My opinion is that the actual image isn't really any sharper with a focused light source but, rather, the grain carrying the image is over-attenuated because of the "shadow box" effect I spoke of earlier. In my older days of optical print work, I found that black and white film basically looked the same whether it was copied with diffused or focused light (though the scratches were more visible without diffusion) but color film always looked grainier when focused light was used, compared to diffused light. I think if you are using good optics, diffused is the better way to go.
Sparky wrote: And how would you maintain an even illumination without diffusion?
See above regarding the condenser lens on the light source.

Roger
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Post by Sparky »

Thanks again Roger- plenty to look into and learn. I've just been reading about how in microscopes the illumination condenser system and its position/focal length are considered very critical, but I guess there you want maximum edge contrast for seeing cell outlines etc- not really what we want here. I think I need to experiment when I get my lens sorted out.


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Post by MovieStuff »

Sparky wrote: I've just been reading about how in microscopes the illumination condenser system and its position/focal length are considered very critical, but I guess there you want maximum edge contrast for seeing cell outlines etc- not really what we want here.
But, in many ways, the problems are the same except the results you want are a bit different. On a microscope slide, the specimen isn't just one layer with an image on it but, rather, many layers at different levels with micro-organisms floating around. To see all these layers at once and in focus as much as possible, a focused light source is more desirable because it will do to the micro-organisms what it does to the scratches on the back side of the film. A diffused light source on a microscope would pretty much limit what is in focus to just a very thin area. So what's bad for a microscope is good for copying film because film, also, has many layers. When copying 35mm film, it really isn't much of an issue but when copying 8mm film, the thickness of the film relative to the frame size is considerable. To be able to copy just the emulsion side of the 8mm frame and leave the base side as soft as possible is ideal. Diffused light helps in that regard while focused light makes it near impossible because you end up seeing both the base and the emulsion in focus together, just like on a microscope.

EDIT: One of the other reasons that early optical printers used a focused light source is because it would allow multiple layers to be in focus more easily. That's important when bi-packing mattes and counter mattes for effects or titling work, especially when they were not emulsion to emulsion, which is really required when using a diffused light source.

Roger
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Post by Justin Lovell »

geez, learn something new everyday from roger... (not kidding either...) almost like my dad when i was kid.
justin lovell
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8/16/35mm - 2k.5k.HDR.film transfers
http://www.framediscreet.com
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Post by VideoFred »

AKIO wrote:
Now, I'm trying both "macro capturing like you (my cam is the same as yours)"
Akio,

Very nice!
Now two of us are using this cam :wink:
The K40 frames on your site are fine!

EDIT: I took a better look at your site...
You made a very nice camera setup!
Everything can be fine adjusted.. Well done, Akio!


Fred.
Last edited by VideoFred on Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
my website:
http://www.super-8.be

about film transfering:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_k0IKckACujwT_fZHN6jlg
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Post by VideoFred »

@ Everybody:

Thank you all for reply and suggestions.
I've had a long weekend.. time for more tests.
Someone has send me a real good reel of K40 an R25, shot with the Canon 1014 XLS, 1014 Autozoom and Fujica ZC1000.

Together with the reel, he also send me digital frames of the same reel, made with the Workprinter and a high-end Sony 3CCD cam.

So, at last I had something to compare with.

My lens and camera are fine, I know for shure now. 8)
Colors are better with the Sony 3CCD, but mine are pretty good, too.

Sharpness is also a matter of post editing.(unsharp mask etc.)
Why did I noticed so many unscharp reels?
Because they are unscharp.

Amateur reels are often made with cheaper Super-8 cameras and often not 100% focussed. Both the Canon 1014 and the Fuji ZC1000 are making razor sharp images!

Fred.
my website:
http://www.super-8.be

about film transfering:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_k0IKckACujwT_fZHN6jlg
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