Digital Is Catching Up Too Well I Am Afraid - On Par Already

Forum covering all aspects of small gauge cinematography! This is the main discussion forum.

Moderator: Andreas Wideroe

Post Reply
Alex

Post by Alex »

John_Pytlak wrote:As I noted in another thread, my daughter's professional wedding photographer MUCH preferred using film, because of its superior ability to handle highlights (white lace), fleshtones (beautiful bride :-) ), and colors (flowers and dresses). He delivered hundreds of beautiful images on 120 size Kodak negative film, a set of 5x5-inch paper proofs, and two CDs with all the scanned images. Can't wait for some poster-sized blow ups of the shots, but the digitized images are convenient for sharing with family and friends.
I find that Digital has problems with the human face.

Bridge of the nose, blown out, blond hair, blown out, when the is face turned 2/3, for some reason some part of the face will become blown out, unless, the contrast is flat enough to where kodachrome would look good, then the digital image does rock as well.
kentbulza
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:04 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by kentbulza »

Taliesin wrote:digital blows film out of the water.

Taliesin
Take an 8x10 transparency of image x...put it on a light panel.

Open a TIFF of the same subject shot digitally on the densest screen you can find.

Compare and contrast.
User avatar
MovieStuff
Posts: 6135
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:07 am
Real name: Roger Evans
Location: Kerrville, Texas
Contact:

Post by MovieStuff »

Alex wrote:Why not shoot negative and then transfer to digital and then stay in the digital realm?
Time.

Roger
Mitch Perkins
Senior member
Posts: 2190
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:36 am
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Post by Mitch Perkins »

Taliesin wrote: digital is supremely more time consuming, complex and difficult to work with than film.

Taliesin
Where do I sign up? ~:?)

Mitch
Mitch Perkins
Senior member
Posts: 2190
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:36 am
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Post by Mitch Perkins »

John_Pytlak wrote: Can't wait for some poster-sized blow ups of the shots, but the digitized images are convenient for sharing with family and friends.
It's nice to have a choice. My beef with the digital guys is that they won't be happy until "film is dead." Plus, in their rush to kill for financial gain...they *lie*!

Regardless of which format one prefers generally, there is explicitly *no value* in having less choice.

Mitch
Taliesin
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:59 am
Contact:

Post by Taliesin »

kentbulza wrote: Take an 8x10 transparency of image x...put it on a light panel.

Open a TIFF of the same subject shot digitally on the densest screen you can find.

Compare and contrast.
I've done this many times an it has taught me the limitations of film.
Don't get me wrong I love film and I think it's capable of producing beautiful images. However in my field of Art reproduction film will loose every time in the comparison test you outline above.

Taliesin
Alex

Post by Alex »

Taliesin wrote:
kentbulza wrote: Take an 8x10 transparency of image x...put it on a light panel.

Open a TIFF of the same subject shot digitally on the densest screen you can find.

Compare and contrast.
I've done this many times an it has taught me the limitations of film.
Don't get me wrong I love film and I think it's capable of producing beautiful images. However in my field of Art reproduction film will loose every time in the comparison test you outline above.

Taliesin
Based on which scanner? All scanners or just some scanners?
Taliesin
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:59 am
Contact:

Post by Taliesin »

Alex wrote:Based on which scanner? All scanners or just some scanners?
It's not about the scanner, there are good and bad scanners.
I scan large format transparencies when I have to in my work.
Sometimes I am sent a transparency of a work of art that is being loaned to us for a show and since the publicity for the show must be done long before the actual original work arrives I am forced to scan the film to get the needed digital image to be sent to the printer for the gallery guide, museum magazine, poster etc. I have a good film scanner and I know how to use it. I can get a good scan of the transparency that matches the transparency really well and get that image into print.
The problem is that it is nearly impossible to get a transparency that is accurate to the original painting or anything else for that matter. Film has the fixed limitations that I have stated earlier. But give me the original painting and I can do a direct digital capture of it and it will surpass the scanned film image in every way.
What must be remembered also is that nearly all the printing presses in the world are now digital and require an accurate digital image for printing.
Just so you know I use the correct tool for the job without prejudice look in the October 2005 issue of Art in America pg. 146 and you'll see a two page wide photograph by me of a Lewitt wall drawing and because it's 180 degrees wide and poorly lit I shot it with my 2 1/4 Noblex panoramic camera on color negative film. I then scanned the negative and tweaked it in photoshop to get the resulting image. This is not my usual working method but it got the job done.

Taliesin
sophocle
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:26 am
Contact:

Post by sophocle »

As I said ealier, if you think that anything, and I mean anything, comes close to LF, your requirements as simply too low.

I have had many arguments with 35mm guys over the years--how I waste my time and money on 8x10, how the latest Nikon is better or as good.

So now they all bought digicams, and I hear the same thing.

Give it up--

An 8x10 portable sensor resolving at at least lense capability will definitely get my attention, but I haven't seen one yet.
Taliesin
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:59 am
Contact:

Post by Taliesin »

sophocle wrote:As I said ealier, if you think that anything, and I mean anything, comes close to LF, your requirements as simply too low.

I'm a diehard large format photographer, I have been since the early 70's, but I no longer very often use film.

Check these out, this is not about 35mm nikon digital junk.


http://www.betterlight.com

http://www.sjphoto.com

Taliesin
fritzcarraldo
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 7:14 pm
Contact:

Post by fritzcarraldo »

in your tv digital looks great, now, try to project it in big screens,

and, try to buy a good projector,

they still can't beat quality / price of the 16mm Fumeo, with 2000W lamps, it equals what? 7200 lumens?

I read that a eiki with a 250w lamp equals 900 lumens so, i made the calculation for the Fumeo

Film is still better for projection on screen, for tv, it never stood a chance, not now, and not before
User avatar
S8 Booster
Posts: 5857
Joined: Mon May 06, 2002 11:49 pm
Real name: Super Octa Booster
Location: Yeah, it IS the real thing not the Fooleywood Crapitfied Wannabe Copy..
Contact:

Post by S8 Booster »

wonder if it is the projection gear which is the limiting factor.

have to say i am very impressed by these digital rebel images i zoomed by:

image sample page:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EDR/EDRPICS.HTM

sample image:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E ... G_1085.HTM

s/hoot
..tnx for reminding me Michael Lehnert.... or Santo or.... cinematography.com super8 - the forum of Rednex, Wannabees and Pretenders...
User avatar
MovieStuff
Posts: 6135
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:07 am
Real name: Roger Evans
Location: Kerrville, Texas
Contact:

Post by MovieStuff »

S8 Booster wrote: have to say i am very impressed by these digital rebel images i zoomed by:
Image

Actually, this image illustrates the very problem with the auto exposure systems of digital that I posted about earlier. The sky is burned out in this shot but doesn't have to be. If the exposure had been set to protect detail in the sky area, the darker areas of the locomotive would still have contained all the detail you see here but the original field shot would look "dark", which the average consumer would not know how to correct. While consumers constantly over and underexpose negative when doing snapshots, they never see the negs; they only see the finished corrected prints from the lab. Thus they never have to deal with exposure issues that digital shooters do. This doesn't make one format better than another but it does illustrate that it takes a different skill set to navigate digital effectively.

Image

This shot shows the real weakness of most digital cameras; namely crap lenses. Note the blue and red chromatic seperations along the edge of the white area. A decent lens would prevent this and make a sharp picture look even sharper but the lenses for most digital cameras are pathetic and lightweight. I am in the process of machining a bulkhead adaptor for my wife's Rebel to take super sharp M42 lenses. like the old Takumar line. I'll post the results later.

Roger
User avatar
S8 Booster
Posts: 5857
Joined: Mon May 06, 2002 11:49 pm
Real name: Super Octa Booster
Location: Yeah, it IS the real thing not the Fooleywood Crapitfied Wannabe Copy..
Contact:

Post by S8 Booster »

well, i was more thinking about the lack of noise and digital artifacts in the darker areas rather than photograhic work and n lens performance.

seems like these cmos chips perform well and according to the article uses sort of dynamic cmos pixels:
Canon has continued to be fairly closed-mouthed about their CMOS sensor technology, but have talked about a few details of it. As with other Active-Pixel CMOS sensors, theirs does in fact have a signal amplifier located at each pixel site. More intriguing though, is that they also claim to have an A/D (analog to digital) converter at each individual pixel site as well. If this last is true, then it must be a very different sort of A/D than is normally used with CCDs, as those circuits are quite complex and space-consuming. I keep expecting that we'll hear more details as Canon's patent position is solidified, but so far not much information has been forthcoming. It does seem though, that there's been some genuine innovation in Canon's back labs. It's unusual these days to see a company moving toward vertical integration, developing component technology in-house rather than farming it out to specialist companies. Canon has been moving strongly in the opposite direction, bringing not only sensor technology in-house, but the processing circuitry as well, with their much-vaunted DIGIC chip. Based on the pricing of the Digital Rebel 300D, it does appear that there's been some monetary advantage in this approach.
s/hoot
..tnx for reminding me Michael Lehnert.... or Santo or.... cinematography.com super8 - the forum of Rednex, Wannabees and Pretenders...
fritzcarraldo
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 7:14 pm
Contact:

Post by fritzcarraldo »

s8 booster,

I wasn't just talking about projecting gear, but also about the reason the images are created,

Film is made to be projected, not to be shown on tv, even though many commercials are still shot in super16mm

Video was always designed to work on tv, that's the reason video been working in interlaced systems, reducing image quality, just to be easier to broadcast in tv systems,

HD projection still sucs if compared with film 16mm or 35mm

So, originally:

Video is for TV

Film is for screening

many can use hybrid filming methods to use both ways, or to change looks, but the original ways were those

regards
Post Reply