Canon 1014XL-S vs. BEAULIEU 5008/4008

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Marius
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Canon 1014XL-S vs. BEAULIEU 5008/4008

Post by Marius » Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:21 am

Ok, been checking on these cameras latly, hard choice. Kinda feeling the Canon a bit. What do you guys think? Pros and cons on both cameras please....whats better to use? The BEAULIEU seem to have some tricky battery issues. How is the image quality among these cameras, which has best?

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Post by Yemi » Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:17 am

Hi Marius.

I think the Beaulieu's biggest selling point is interchangable lenses. They are fantastic cameras but they need TLC and servicing/overhaul makes sense. I'm really impressed with Canon cameras though.

Hey, One thing I don't like about the 4008 is the fast shutter speed. 1/90 secs at 24fps does not make for smooth pans! Nobody else seems to mention it but for me it was a major disadvantage (I used to own a 4008ZMII). I prefer a shutter speed around 1/60 secs. My Beaulieu 6008S and Canon meet this requirement. The 5008 does too.


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Post by BK » Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:29 am

Being the owner of both I'll say I like the Canon better, it is a very versatile and reliable camera, beautiful optics, fast and accurate auto exposure.

The Beaulieu has it's advantages though with the interchangeable lenses, and a much faster slow motion if you want that "Matrix" effect. If you have the Angenieux 6-80 zoom it beats the Canon in terms of sharpness and light transmission. Power is no problem, you can make your own as many owners have done and it's not too difficult.

Bill

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Post by Patrick » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:55 am

I assume that the Canon 1014 XL1s shares the same split image range finder as the 1014 AE? If so, the ground glass focussing screen found in most Beaulieu cameras would be more user-friendly and more suited to a wider selection of subject matter. A split image finder is very difficult to use on moving subject matter, unless everything is pre-planned as in shooting a fiction with acters. If however, the movement is spontaneous, then you will have great difficulty focussing on the action. Ground glass focussing would be more convenient here. A split image range finder is also restrictive when trying to focus on the surface of water or subjects that don't have strong vertical or diagonal lines. Difficult to use in low light situations as well.

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Post by ericMartinJarvies » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:41 am

its all in the lens! i have slowly but surely learned that as long as your camera(whetever kind it may be) is working correctly(advances film, does not have breathing/fogging, and the shutter operates correctly), then they will all expose film the same. the better the lens, the better the image. so a c-mount camera or a leica mount super8 camera is a really nice option to have because once you learn how to expose film properly, you will then want to increase your image quality. you will do this with better lighting, and a better lens. and if you use a negative film stock, you will indeed have more latitude as it relates to the final exposed product when processing and tranferring to digital. so, if possible, if you are looking at fixed lens cameras, see if you can find out the information regarding the lens and its resolution. this will make all the difference assuming you are properly exposing your film. and i mean ALL the differance. if you could use the same lens on every type of super8 camera, the images from each will most likely be the same, and could intercut without any noticable differance(again, assuming the cameras is functioning correctly, and is not a piece of junk).

so, if you were to purchase a beaulieu c-mount camera, and were to purchase a pl mount to c-mount adapter, and then purhcase a zeiss 10-100 t lens, you will end up with images/image quality comperable to 16mm, except smaller. not withstanding the focal distances that would change as a result of using a 16mm lens on a s8 camera, but who cares ... its what's in the frame that is important.

i have alot of film tests i have shot over the past months, and hands down the better images come from better lenses, period. i have s8 and 16mm film that cut easily be intercut, and the only thing that would be the dead ringer givaway would be when expanding the s8 image to the 16mm frame size(resizing effect picture quality). but if you were to cut down 16mm to s8, then they would be the same in terms of quality.

a good, and not to expensive lens is the switar(make sure not to get the RX type lens, as it displaces the light differantly from the back focus to the film plane to account for the bolex gate design which have optics between the film and the lens in most cases. get the AR type lens for use on beaulieu, etc. c-mount type cameras). i am not dissapointed i did not have resolution charts when i filmed all this past footage over the past months ... i could have posted the resolution data and side by side comparisons. however, when my video editing computer arrives, i will be able to post the side by side test results between the differant lenses and film stocks ... those themselves will be a great help to the new filmmaker.
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Post by S8 Booster » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:08 am

BK wrote:Being the owner of both I'll say I like the Canon better, it is a very versatile and reliable camera, beautiful optics, fast and accurate auto exposure.

Bill
I also own a 1014 and a 5008 and the Canon beats the 5008 in every aspect of filmmaking as well as image colour balance and vignetting free lenses. The Scheniders and Angienieuxes are quite bad in some focal ranges.

Mechanically and electronically the Canon is superiour to any Beaulieu products and the time has shown that the Canons seem to have an unbeatable reliablilty vs most other cams and certainly the Beaulieus.

The Canon has many built in features that no Beaulieus ever had like variable time lapse, auto cross fading/Lap dissolve, in viewfinder film counter with a END warning superimposed flashing in the viewfinder when there is 60cm (or 2 feet for the Neandertals) left of the film +++++++++++++++++++

The rangefinder on the 1014 is split image AND microprisms and works totally accurate in very low light (800 ASA level) which is more difficult with the 5008 but the 5008 works OK.

Low light performance is marginally better with the beaulieu but only n center of the lens due to vignetting of the Schneiders and Beaulieus.

Samples: Some vignetting is added from the projection/transfer system for both cams:

Beaulieu 5008/Schcneider 6-70 vignetting.
Image

Canon 1014 XL-S same conditions.
Image


Check vignetting/light fall off in the corners:

Beaulieu
Image

Canon
Image

The average light (total film plane AVR) seem to be identical for both cams but the B is brighte in the middle and darker on the ednges. The C is contstant through the are apart for the transfer vign. The C lens is total vignetting free - guaranteed by Canon in the maintenance manual.


The lens spectrum coating of the 1014 makes the K40 look superior to anything I have ever seen.

The 5008 uses a vulnerable C-mount for lens attachment. Not so good if you plan to action shoot. Lenses have to be collimated to each cam to perform at it best. No problem in Norway since Bjørn Andersson is located in Sweden.

The 1014 does NOT have the best SLO-MO speed: 36 fps vs 45/70-80 for 5008/4008. However it is a instant one puch button operate so it is easy to activate it instantly mid-shoot on the Canon.

Personally I like the design and physical balance of the 5008 much better than the 4008. A lens like the Schneider/Angineux long zoom protrudes far out from the cam body and makes it vulnerable though.

The 5008 and the canon uses the film industry standard shutter speed of approx 1/60th of a second while the 4008 strobemaster uses 1/100 which makes faster pans and it ls jerky.


General:

The auto exposure (light metering accuracy and instant aperture setting) control of the 1014/814 is much better than the Beaulieus and anything I have ever seen and is faster than the eye so it works well in auto mode.

The 814/1014 may run very accurately sound sync for a S8 cart duration. The motor speed is digitally controlled. The non x-talled Beaulieus seem to to match this.

1014/814 manual variable zoom and focus through shoot is very good. Impossible with the B due to the idiotically protruding motors for zoom and aperture control.

One superior detail on the 5008 is that it is very quiet - much more quieter than the Canons and most other cams.

Do I like the 5008? Yes, I do. I would be my 3rd rated cam after the Canon 1014 and the Nikon R10.
I would rate it over the 4008 any day except for the ultra slo-mo part.

Very good thing about the Beaulieus is that Bjørn Andersson in Sweden offer the best service and maintenance available.

Doing the same job on a Canon is a different story but they are generally very reliable although I believe some of them may need a lube job too by now. Ugh - that 75 wire de- and resoldering job.

The Beaulieu cam control knobs are very flimsy to use compared to the C. On the C you may (With some experience) alter everything you want mid shoot while still looking through the viewfinder. Impossible with the Bs.

Actually for older grumps like me it is a real problem to see scales (film counter etc without using a magnifier glass!.

Just a few impressions

My 2 non Euro Dos Centavos (øre)

R
..tnx for reminding me Michael Lehnert.... or Santo or.... cinematography.com super8 - the forum of Rednex, Wannabees and Pretenders...

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Post by jukkasil » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:31 am

I vote also for Canon 1014 XL-S.

Anyway I haven't had good working model of Beualieus.

I do have transfered many filmprojects shot with Bs (4008, 6008 series), so I'd compare a little about their image quality.

Absolutely 1014 XL-S makes the sharpest quality and its exposure meter is the best I have ever seen speaking about super 8 cameras.

1014 is like a hammer, I haven't had any problem with it in different kind of situtiations.

Beualieus are more like jewels, but very fragile ones.

Anyway it's great that we still have people like Bjorn keeping Bs alive!
Best Regards

Jukka Sillanpaa

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Post by Pedro » Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:19 pm

I think this kind of comparing is not quite correct.

the Canon model is the latest model produced by Canon until the beginning 1980ies, employing all the electronic possibilities of that time.
The Beaulieu 4008/5008 are 1970ies modells with a much simplier electromechanical control system for speed and exposure. The 4008 development documents even base on the very first Super8 cameras of the mid 1960ies.

Therefore there is no doubt, that the control system of a modern hi-end camera like the Canon MUST perform better.
Besides the slow motion, the only advantage of the antique Beaulieu models over the modern Canon is the viewfinder. You have a stunning VERY BIG viewfinder screen, made of a FULL SIZE ground glass, placed in the same distance to the lens like the film surface. It is as big and bright as in 35 mm SRL cameras. This allows the best possible and quickest focus adjustment under any light and scene conditions, without centering the object into the middle of the viewfinder. The 4008/5008 screen is even superior to the 7008 screen.

Vigneting, color balance and the prior discussed grainyness does not depend at all of the camera, but ONLY on lens and film material.
Some Schneider 6-70 lenses really may show vignetting under certain conditions and are not the best joice regarding sharpness and contrast. There are also big diferences between individual lenses of the same type. They are economic lenses, for my opinion, work good when the stop is not totally open and they are not set to 6 mm.
The anterior 6-66 Schneider lens is perfect regarding vignetting, sharpness and contrast and I love the macro ability with all zoom settings. The Angenieux 6-80 lens is the very best of all S8 lenses ever made and for shure would beat the Canon or any other lens. It has NO vignetting at all and what is really surprising, it provides highest contrast and sharpness even at open stop 1:1,2.

The advantage and disadvantage of Beaulieus is the interchangeable lens and the need of colimation. Use simply the lens of your joice, but invest €50 for colimation, it is worth doing it.

The color reproduction depends on the lens and conversion filter and not on the camera. Internal gelatine filters in Beaulieus should be removed anyway, for best results. If they are only a little bit distorted, they affect sharpness and colimation.
Different lenses have slightly differnet color reproduction. The Angenieux 6-80 has perfect vivid colors, for my opinion. It is perfectly coated, my shots agains the light with the sun shining directly into the lens proove that very impressively.
With Beaulieu ASA setting, it is very easy to control the color saturation of the film. 1/3 stop less exposure, and the film comes out with deeper colors. Old factory settings oftenly tend to over-exposure 1/3 --- 1/2 stop, for brighter projection.

A better comparing to the Canon would be a 7008 or 9008 Beaulieu.
Here you have 1/60 shutter time in LL position and 1/72 in N position. Combined with the 6-80 lens, you get the FULL light (1:1,2 or T=1:1,4) on the film, without loosing anything for viewfinder or measuring. The Canon has, like most other cameras, a beam-splitting prism that consumes about 40%...50% of the available light. So the effective stop at 1/60 would be 1:2,8 assuming the same maximal lens aperture. This technical fact makes the Beaulieu exposuring system about 2x as bright as any beam-splitting system, without the need to employ extremly slow shutter times that wipe away all sharpness.

The exposure system of the 7008 (models fabricated in the same years like the Canon) is extremly reliable and bottom weighted and adjusts a REAL SEGMENT IRIS in the CENTRE OF THE LENS using a servo motor. This garantees the normal photografic behavior in terms of depth of field and sharpness.
Problems with the Beaulieu exposure system only accured after the Super 8 area had gone (in the 1990ies production) and Canon and all the others had abanadoned that format. The measuring diodes had to be changed to available types with different characteristics (wider sensitivity angle). But adjustment is possible to be done by any user at home.

The motor is electronically controlled as well and for shure runs not better or worser like the Canon.

So I would choose a 7008/9008 over a Canon, because of the 6-80 lens with real iris, the full screen ground glass focussing and the highest light sensibility at usable shutter times available on the market.
But I would choose the Canon over a 4008/5008 model, because they are tricky to operate, noisy, no 1:1 contact, their knob positions are not reproducable and I don´t like the slow acting exposure system. But perhaps a 6-80 lens would me convince...

Pedro

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Post by crimsonson » Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:10 pm

Pedro -

I am unsure a $450 camera can be compared to $2000+ system.

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Post by Kurt8 » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:47 pm

Yes but the Canon certainly cost more than $450 when it first came out so that's not really a valid point, is it? I think that the 1014 XL-S was Canon's answer to all of the other high-end Super 8 cameras of that period and can be compared with any Super 8 model.

Kurt

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Post by Andersens Tears » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:07 pm

Hi,

I don't own either a Canon or a B' - but I do have a Nizo Professional - what do you guys think of this cam?? How does it compare??

Thanks,

'Tears

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Post by ericMartinJarvies » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:29 pm

i think s8 booster and pedro have both cited completely valid points. so even in a world of all kinds of choices, it all boils down to what one can afford to spend and for what particular purpose/final product one wishes to produce. it would be my guess(not owning a canon) that a good movie can be made with any of the mentioned cameras. last night i was watching a marathon of old movies made in the 30's, and they all kept my attention and had good story lines and production value, even though they were black and white and the image quality was no where near what one could acheive on one of the above s8 cameras.

perhaps one can acheive more with one camera then the other, or have specific features on one that is not on the other. but if the lens is not a good quality lens, the image will suffer no matter what the camera is capable of doing with respect to features, and that is more then obvious when seen side by side and comparisons are drawn.

so if a c-mount camera gives one the option to use a nicer lens, and if one can afford such a lens, then so be it. my personal opinion regarding the 4008 is that they are an easy camera to work on for the self driven. however, compared to the 7008, and after using a 7008, you tend not want to pick up the 4008 and film with it because it seems a lessor camera. although i admittedly like the design of the 4008 more so then the 7008, but the design of a camera and the resulting image are two differnat interests and objectives all together.

also, regarding using differant lenses on the c-mount cameras, and how most refer to having to 'collimate' the lens ... i think the word 'collimate' is used too generally in these and many other threads. in MOST cases a lens will not need to be collimated, it will merely need to have the focal distances checked and perhaps the back focus adjusted, which is more of a calibration then a collimation in my opinion ... and having a camera with ground glass, this can easily be done by yourself, a tape measurer, and some time.

i think 'collimation' would more often occur if you were to take a lens with a c-mount and convert it to an arri mount, or making changes along those lines wherein the distances between the back focus based on a particular mount is differant from the SAME type lens between the various mounting options available(pl, arri, c-mount, etc.).
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Post by focusgroup » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:39 pm

Are we forgetting the important point here? The body is simply a transport mechanism. The 4008 is professional in every way and will accomplish most needs. The battery issue should be a non issue. The camera should be modified for external batteries. The 4008 is very sturdy and professionally built. The canon is plastic.

The beaulieu has ground glass focusing, the canon doesnt.

Of course the most important point is the lens. The mtf value becomes much more critical the smaller the gauge. The C mount allows you purchase the best lenses. I use prime cooke and paillard lenses mostly.

The bottom line image quality will be superior if you use superior lenses. The 4008 while not pin registered, is extremely stable. The canon isnt either. (As a matter of fact the aaton S16's arent pin registered either).

Soooo, In a small gauge prime lenses are far superior (I even notice this alot in 35mm). There is no question that if you know how to shoot, the well built interchangleable mount camera will give superior results.

Dont believe me? Look at virtually any professional film site(motion picture or not) and see what the pros think.

Also re: the poster who talked about panning at 90fps? Obviously this person doesnt understand that no camera can do a smooth pan when overcranking the camera!!! Sheesh. If you want to pan at 90fps you must be on a tripod using a remote panning head.

Also using an approx 100degree shutter at around 24fps will make you double check stroboscopic issues. They can be overcome but you must be conscious of pan speed. Isnt it 15 seconds from side to side at around 24fps to avoid strobe issues?


George

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Post by focusgroup » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:42 pm

Yemi

Sorry, you said 1/87 Tvalue not 90fps. The issue of strobe however has nothing to with a camera problem. Its shutter angle and speed of the pan.

This issue will occur with any camera using the same shutter angle and pan speed.

George

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Post by christoph » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:59 pm

Pedro wrote:A better comparing to the Canon would be a 7008 or 9008 Beaulieu.
Here you have 1/60 shutter time in LL position and 1/72 in N position. Combined with the 6-80 lens, you get the FULL light (1:1,2 or T=1:1,4) on the film, without loosing anything for viewfinder or measuring. The Canon has, like most other cameras, a beam-splitting prism that consumes about 40%...50% of the available light. So the effective stop at 1/60 would be 1:2,8 assuming the same maximal lens aperture. This technical fact makes the Beaulieu exposuring system about 2x as bright as any beam-splitting system, without the need to employ extremly slow shutter times that wipe away all sharpness.
exellent post, however there's a small error in the part above i think. the viewer prism usually doesnt quite loose 40-50% of the light (and even if it did, 50% is only one stop down from the maximum aperture f/1,4 (ie. 2,0 and not 2,8). usually it's more like 1/2 to 2/3 stop (at least mine is).

secondly the 1014xls has a xl shutter (i guess 220 deg) which means you get an additional 1/2 stop of light because of that (1/40 vs 1/60 sec on 24fps).. so this basically makes up for the light lost in the viewer.
in the end this means the canon will do (about 1 stop) better than a 4008 f/1,8 and it will do slightly (1/2 stop) worse than a 7008 f/1,2.

++ christoph ++

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