Canon 1014XL-S vs. BEAULIEU 5008/4008

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supa8
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Post by supa8 » Wed Aug 06, 2003 8:56 pm

does the canon 1014 and 1014 xls have an ASA setting like the beaulieu? if not, then that's a huge advantage for the beaulieu isn't it?

Yemi
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Post by Yemi » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:25 pm

Yemi

Sorry, you said 1/87 Tvalue not 90fps. The issue of strobe however has nothing to with a camera problem. Its shutter angle and speed of the pan.

This issue will occur with any camera using the same shutter angle and pan speed.

George
George, this is a major issue for me because 1/87 (or is it 1/84?) is the slowest possible shutter speed @ 24fps on the Beaulieu 4008 series and is very easy to spot when your footage contains a lot of motion (action sports). No camera is perfect and there are certain features and quirks that I am prepared to live with but if I am absolutely unable to produce footage I am happy with I'll look elsewhere and thats exactly what I did. For me, motion translation is a big part of the film asthetic.

Beaulieu 6008 series upwards allow you to shoot at 1/60 in addition to 1/87 which is why one reason why I sold my 4008ZMII and got a 6008s.
The 5008 may not be as fancy as the 4008 but it has a fixed shutter with a speed of 1/60 @ 24fps. If I had to shoot some action footage @ 24fps and had a choice between the 5008 and 4008 I'd choose the 5008 (assuming it has a decent lens). I'm sure some people are cursing right now but my opinion is based on real personal shooting experience.
My Canon 814 electronic variable shutter gives me 1/58 @ 24fps when fully open and that's fine with me.

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Yemi

Yemi
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Post by Yemi » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:40 pm

does the canon 1014 and 1014 xls have an ASA setting like the beaulieu? if not, then that's a huge advantage for the beaulieu isn't it?
Yes I think it is a significant advantage. However, all is not lost since the Canon's can handle a wide range of indexed film speeds which should be good enough for most negative films (assuming they are indexed/notched). The 1014/814 xls also have a 'fine tuning' control too which should help you calibrate the internal meter correctly.

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Yemi

ericMartinJarvies
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Post by ericMartinJarvies » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:29 pm

there is absolutly NOTHING wrong with the 5008 compared to the 4008. both, and all of the beaulieu cameras are great cameras. recently, another member(basstruc/matt) has taken apart his camera and is reconditioning it .. it is a 4008, and i beleive he is going to attempt to change the shutter speeds, which is NOT a difficult task if one has access to a mill and a dremel. it is important to remember that all of the beaulieu s8 cameras have essentially the same shutter mechanism. in the case of the 4008, you have the front shutter plate in which a mirror is attachedthis sends light through the ground glass(if positioned), a little round optic, and then to a beamsplitter and 45 degree prism(1/2 is directed to the light sensor and the other 1/2 makes its way to the viewing tube and back out to the dioptre/eye pieces).

behind this front shutter plate with the mirror attached, you have another layer/plate-set. instead of this plate being only one piece, it is two pieces, and they open and close like 2 sliding doors, or as curtains on a stage open and closed for visual example. these are the VARIABLE shutter plates, and in default position they are always open. when you use the variable shutter control knob located on the top of the camera, that serves to close those sliding doors if you will. i have described these in the sideways position, but in reality it is up and down, top and bottom, instead of left and right or side to side.

there is ONE gear that has a set of pully arms. one of these is the pully claw that advances the film. the other is the pully arm that opens and closes the front shutter plate with the mirror. this arm can be replaced with either a longer one or a shorter one if one so desired. because the plate is mounted inside of a fixed/grooved track on both sides, it can only move up or down(back and forth ... over the gate and off the gate). and because there is plenty of free space on either side(top and bottom), it would not hurt or effect anything when one changed the length of the pully arm. this said, it is essentially a fairly easy fix to change the shutter speeds.

in my own investigations and research, i have found that this type of modification, and many others like it, could easily be REPLICATED providing people had access to specification sheets. as such, when i receive my own cnc mill and lathe, i will learn how to use them, and once i have figured out the basics, i will attempt to make such parts. in doing so, i will need to make G-code for the cnc. these are computer based instructions that are sent to the cnc controlled mill or lathe, and the cutting instructions are sent for all 4 axis'(typically only 3 axis, but there is an attachment that provides a 4th axis should one so desire). once a part is made and is tested and works, then the G-code is essentially the blueprint. so armed with the code/instructions, you or anyone will literally be able to go to any machine shop, or using your own cnc machine, follow the directions and type in(or download and copy and paste) the g-code and the machine will do the rest, and you will have the exact part needed for the modifications. this is where things start to get really exciting, because if a dB can be originated with verious mods for the beaulieu, canon, etc., and all one has to do is select the applicable mod they so desire, that will make things alot easier and more possible then is available now. it will also allow folks to do it themselves, instead of having to purchase someone's product and service, which may be too expensive for you to begin with.

eric
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Pedro
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Post by Pedro » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:48 am

Christoph:
you may be right, but I basically wanted to point out, that with the Beaulieu 6/7/9008 you don´t need to employ extra long shutter times (XL) to achieve lowlight abilities. The Beaulieu shutter construction can handle it at "normal" shutter times.
I personally don´t like XL shutter cameras at all. The resulting films look crappy instead of crisp. When we take fotos with a still camera, we also avoid too long shutter times without camera stand and use short times to capture a moving objet without wiping it. We only use long shutter times for gathering light for not moving objects or for obtaining special effects with moving objets. In this case, we oftenly apply a final flash to the end of the shutter time, in order to produce a crisp impression (2nd curtain sync).
In cine we are more limited, as there is a relation between framerate and shutter time. If we make the shutter times too slow, like with 220° and 225° shutters (= 1/38 sec), we naturally get nothing sharp what is moving, the typical XL look.
The Beaulieu can avoid this XL look, saving light in another way.

XL shutter do NOT produce smoother pans, the singular frames of the pan may become wiped and the pan only produces headake on the screen. The only method for producing smooth pans is to employ an adequate (slow) pan speed, in relation to both, shutter time and frame rate! This means, that with xl shutters, you must make the pan slower as with a 1/60 shutter at the same framerate.


About the price relation:
I think you can find a 1014XL-S and a 7008S in the same price range. The 4008/5008 goes for much cheaper.

Pedro

focusgroup
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Post by focusgroup » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:11 pm

Not to belabor the point Yemi re: your use of film for action but I might suggest you look at the following link from an excellent cinematographer.

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/moti ... king.shtml

As Pedro has righly pointed out. Fast action generally requires a higher shutter speed to avoid too much blur. Most slow motion action is shot at higher shutter speeds to capture specific motion.

As a matter of fact David Park (the cinematographer discussed in the above link) uses a very radical 45 degree shutter angle. Again Panning issues are primarily related to the speed of the pan rather than the shutter angle or shutter speed.

Have fun

George

Yemi
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Post by Yemi » Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:36 pm

George,

I agreee that too much motion blur (XL shutter speeds) make for crap moving images but too little motion blur can also be equally unappealing. Most pro cameras have shutters around the 1/50 to 1/60 range. I personally like 1/60 for my sports footage. I WANT to capture some of that motion blur. There is no wrong or right it's a question of taste. How fast a shutter is too fast? ~1/90 at 24fps certainly looks ultra crisp but it doesn't look natural to me. Very reminiscent of the fast shutter speed cinematography used in the "Gladiator" fight scenes and also widely used in energetic music videos. Might make sense if you are trying to analyze still images (scientific purposes) but I'm talking asthetics. If you like the results then fine. I don't.

What's shutter speed of the human eye? (If there is an equivalent)
I'm pretty certain that we don't "see" things at 1/90 .....probably much slower.

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Yemi

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