Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

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aj
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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by aj » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:29 pm

richard p. t. wrote:There were two announcements - the camera and the processing telecine service.
There is a big question in my mind what this will mean for the labs not in the partnership with Kodak (which presumably is all but one of the super 8 labs). Will it put us out of business? Is that good for film? I know I'm not the only small lab operator nervous about this announcement. At this stage the only saving grace I can think of is that someone mentioned the transfer they would be offering would be SD resolution. Most of our customers wouldn't want that. But where did that fact come from? Is it true?

Want to hear the very ugly imagining I had this morning ... this is all straight out of the dark part of my soul ...
Kodak plan on using this announcement to cover that they want to stop putting super 8 in cartridges. They want to hand all loading cartridges to other parties who would become the sellers and processes of kodak stock in super 8. And that's why they were willing, for seemingly the first time in modern histroy of Kodak, to sell someone unperforated 16mm film. They plan on doing more of that...
This is a dark thought. Its not a fact. Its just a dark thought. But it reminds me of the 'hey, we are introducing a new colour reversal stock called 64t (and stopping kodachrome)'. Or, 'Hey you wanted it, so we are introducing 50d in super 8! (and discontinuing all colour reversal super 8 films)'.
I want to stress that this all comes from voices in my head while not sleeping. though, they have done this to us before ...
I also want to stress that putting aside the above thoughts, and the fact that there is a risk that this announcement will put some of us out of business (depending on how it is handled of course - it may be that they plan on getting in touch with all of us little labs and include us in the deal. It may be that more than just one seller in the USA will be able to sell this new camera) I want to stress that another new camera is a great development. It will raise the profile of the gauge. It will help those parts of film schools who still see the relevance of teaching film fend off those other forces in film schools who think the opposite.
But I worry
One thing for labs would be to keep access to wholesale supplies.
The main thing is to offer the same service. One price all service included. Develop and scan in one house.
The digital thing quick accessible through Internet.
Your advantage is that Australia has barely any service left and Kodak will likely not open an address there. Unless it is yours :)
People would have to send their films far far away.

You apply for distributorship of Ferrania for West-Pacific.
Fotografica show Köln Deutschland, Cologne Germany

Plenty opportunity to find Super-8 gear or even 16mm :)
https://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27635
http://www.fotoboerse-in-der-stadthalle.de/

Kind regards,

André


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by Nicholas Kovats » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:31 pm

Bloomberg reporter hints at 4K scan as part of the new Kodak one-stop-shop channel relative to the new Kodak/Logmar Super 8 camera. Calls this the flagship ($1000 US) with more models planned. I suspect that Logmar actual built the prototypes for CES2016. Which will eventually be farmed out overseas for mass production, i.e.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... look-video

Where do I sign the petition, Richard?!? :)
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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by Will2 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:16 am

Maybe I missed something but I don't see anything about Pro8mm doing the processing and scanning. It says KODAK will offer the service. I realize that COULD mean they strike deals with Pro8mm & other labs but if they do the costs would kill it in it's crib. No newcomer is going to pay Pro8mm prices more than once. Kodak and Pro8mm are very cozy so I understand why we might think they'd be involved but it would be a bad business decision for Kodak...Pro8mm doesn't have the staff or equipment to keep up with what Kodak will see. It would be more cost effective for Kodak to hire 20 people as cheaply as possible to process and scan with a couple higher paid staff to keep an eye on them. It would be more like a 1-hour photo lab than the high-end boutiques that film scanning with good colorists has become.

By the way, the exclusive agreement with Logmar and Pro8mm for the U.S. market is not that bad, Logmar can't lower their prices much more anyway and it makes Pro8mm become the service rep too, relieving that pressure from Logmar. It's an expensive camera but it is amazing. I truly hope that this Kodak initiative will mean MORE business for them.

It really is the way for Kodak to grow the motion picture film business. I know I went from Super 8 to regular 8 to 16mm to super 16 to 35mm. It's a slippery, expensive slope but it is so beautiful.

KODAK needs to come up with an all-in $40-$50 per cartridge deal if they want the masses to use it...and even then it will be a tough sell after they do it once.

When we get the details I'm sure it will be either SD or 720p in MP4. They will make a "consumer" level scan so Pro8mm, Cinelicious and other transfer houses can still stand out as "superior-pro" level services and charge what the charge.


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by inlieubeaulieu » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:33 am

I think that if what the bloomberg article points to is correct (4k scans), it would be a very smart move. I believe this camera will appeal to a lot of commercial-video production companies to provide a certain flavor, for music videos, or even if for just for specific shots in advertisements and promotional videos. Delivering a 4k file would mean that this camera and expenses are on par with a digital system. It means that Kodak is looking forward, acknowledging where the digital industry is and providing a product/service to fit within it. delivering SD or 720p would just make the whole enterprise laughable from anyone's perspective. 4K shows people that film can look amazing, even if it's the cheapest form of it. They want to foster a community (Kodak's reps have directly said this to me), and making a system like this affordable really helps their cause.


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by supa8 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:35 am

4k for super8 can be an overkil in most cases, especially with cheaper lenses.
Also a 1080p or 2k scan with less compression would be better than a compressed (for web upload - convenience) 4k scan. My 2c


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by Will2 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:48 pm

inlieubeaulieu wrote:I think that if what the bloomberg article points to is correct (4k scans), it would be a very smart move. I believe this camera will appeal to a lot of commercial-video production companies to provide a certain flavor, for music videos, or even if for just for specific shots in advertisements and promotional videos. Delivering a 4k file would mean that this camera and expenses are on par with a digital system. It means that Kodak is looking forward, acknowledging where the digital industry is and providing a product/service to fit within it. delivering SD or 720p would just make the whole enterprise laughable from anyone's perspective. 4K shows people that film can look amazing, even if it's the cheapest form of it. They want to foster a community (Kodak's reps have directly said this to me), and making a system like this affordable really helps their cause.
There are all sorts of hidden costs with 4k, especially transmitting that giant file via the internets, that adds up in bulk operations. Also, not every 4k scan is created equal. And more importantly, not every Super 8 film is shot equally. Maybe this new camera will have a fixed focus lens, but I doubt it will focus as sharply as needed for 2k much less 4k. I'm not poo-pooing the idea, its just I doubt it will be "amazing" to us...it may be to someone who hasn't shot motion picture film before though. The only Super 8 I've shot that I felt was worthy of 2k was from my Beaulieu 4008 Jubilee edition...one of the best lenses out there for Super 8. Almost any other camera I've used was beautifully blurry. Looking through many hours of Super 8 footage from Super 8's heyday I can conclude that the vast majority will be horribly out of focus and not resolve to the full potential of the format.

We're used to getting "flat" scans that can be colored or working with top colorists to get amazing looks; what Kodak will have to send consumers is something that can be done quickly and automatically and look good for a home movie. It will be geared toward soccer moms and weekend family shooters (which is totally fine). Professionals (other than Wedding shooters maybe) will undoubtedly still have to go to real colorists and post houses. The publicity from this may remind commercial video companies that film exists but I doubt they would use Kodak's service for an actual spot. But who knows?
Also a 1080p or 2k scan with less compression would be better than a compressed (for web upload - convenience) 4k scan. My 2c
True that.


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by carllooper » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:05 am

4K scans of Super8 are excellent and anyone who argues otherwise is either actually blind, and/or just pragmatically so.

If Kodak are offering 4K scans it won't be, of course, anything to write home about. It'll just be some auto algorithmically graded scan. Just something your average punter looks at and finds acceptable (or indeed hipster awesome). I doubt the deliverable will be the raw scans, or equivalent. I imagine it will be some internet ready format (you tube, vimeo etc). Indeed it will probably just go direct to social media, where your source otherwise lives in the cloud - never occupying your personal hard drive at all. Fully automated. Everything taken care of for you. That's the future.

Indeed one day there wil be Kodak robots that will go out and shoot the film for you. And watch it on Facebook for you, if you don't, yourself, have the time to do so.

For serious filmmakers (or comedians as well) I doubt the Kodak scan deal will have much to offer. We will want the raw scans (or equivalent) so we can take such into DaVinci, After Effcts, etc and do something with such. Make it pretty. Show off. :)

So I suspect the Kodak scan deal need not affect any of our Super8 4K creative/business ideas we've been otherwise entertaining, researching and developing prior to the Kodak announcement. We can compete with Kodak. Do a better job. Only because we're addressing a different market - addressing more experienced filmmakers - those after something a bit better than one click direct-to-facebook solutions.

American Capitalism. It's such a fascinating quixotic beast.

C
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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by carllooper » Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:17 am

The other thing about this particular moment in history is the role played by Logmar.

Against incredible opposition (I thought at the time) they went ahead and made a Super8 camera - and not just any Super8 camera, but a really well engineered one. And so many people completely rubbished the idea. Before, during and after. And still, to this day, there is kind of irrational dismissism around the Logmar.

But when a Kodak Super8 camera is proposed. What happens? It's as if the heavens had suddenly opened and Jesus Christ himself had descended. Such is the power of a century old brand.

But how did the Kodak camera actually come about? Well basically it was the Logmar camera that inspired Kodak. There's no question about that. Without Logmar, and their camera, and those that supported Logmar in their mad vision to make such a camera - we would not, today, be seeing a Kodak Super 8 camera. So everyone who participated in the Logmar experiment (consumers and producers alike) should feel a little bit of pride at the moment. They have played a role in waking up Kodak.

C
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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by doug » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:39 am

carllooper wrote:
But how did the Kodak camera actually come about? Well basically it was the Logmar camera that inspired Kodak. There's no question about that. Without Logmar, and their camera, and those that supported Logmar in their mad vision to make such a camera - we would not, today, be seeing a Kodak Super 8 camera. So everyone who participated in the Logmar experiment (consumers and producers alike) should feel a little bit of pride at the moment. They have played a role in waking up Kodak.

C
Agreed, Carl...And it just goes to prove that everyone with a passion for film can help encourage Kodak :)
Whether it's creating a great new Logmar camera or simply extolling the virtues of discontinued iconic film emulsions, it must make some of the Kodak guys think again.
In the equipment arena, I would hope in this age of 3D printing and so on, others will come up with new ideas too.
Doug
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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by aj » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:30 pm

Victory has many fathers :)

Forums or sites like this filmshooting.com (almost 14 years), cinematography.com, super8man, baumgarten and many others in local language have kept Super-8 alive as they supplied information seeking people with help. Other lifesavers have been firms like Wittner and the labs like Andec and Super8.nl Had these given up sales would have fallen steeply and Kodak might have had to give up after the stop of Kodachrome. Restarting from a stopped and ceased product would have been impossible.

Then lets not forget the declarations of love from Spielberg, Abrams, Tarantino or the film Super-8 who seeded makers and decisionmakers at Kodak with the awareness that they have a viable and valuable product.

Kodak must have analysed the sales data and have concluded that S8 could do better with a supplier of new cameras. It would have been a hard task to find a camera-manufacturer who would design and produce a new range of cameras. Possibly one could have attemped to redesign a Leicina Special, Mekel VIC or some Beaulieu. Reducing the mechanics and fit modern electronics. Lucky coincidence for Kodak was now that Logmar had their new camera in beta-testing and had current expertise on designing a Super-8 camera.

Makes one wonder how many pieces Kodak expects to sell. And if they will make it before next Christmas :)

How is Logmar doing with their production of the final design? Working on the design and prototyping of the Kodak camera must have absorbed all resources of Logmar.

Let's hope the new interest works out for Ferrania too such that we can have reversal film again soon!
Fotografica show Köln Deutschland, Cologne Germany

Plenty opportunity to find Super-8 gear or even 16mm :)
https://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27635
http://www.fotoboerse-in-der-stadthalle.de/

Kind regards,

André


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by carllooper » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:50 pm

aj wrote:Victory has many fathers :)
Oh yes, everyone involved in the small gauge community is part of this. I was just thinking about the camera, more than anything else. Logmar met Kodak during one of their demos and opened their eyes to how simple the idea is. But yes, if the community as a whole didn't exist, there wouldn't have been a Logmar camera, let alone a Kodak one.

I don't know how much the big players (Tarrantino etc) have played in this. I think Super8 is more like an after-thought to them. I don't think they would have been knocking on Kodak's door with a the idea of bringing out a Super8 camera. But given the idea they'd certainly back it in.

Here's to all of us!

C
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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by nikonr10 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:09 pm

aj wrote:Victory has many fathers :)

Forums or sites like this filmshooting.com (almost 14 years), cinematography.com, super8man, baumgarten and many others in local language have kept Super-8 alive as they supplied information seeking people with help. Other lifesavers have been firms like Wittner and the labs like Andec and Super8.nl Had these given up sales would have fallen steeply and Kodak might have had to give up after the stop of Kodachrome. Restarting from a stopped and ceased product would have been impossible.

Then lets not forget the declarations of love from Spielberg, Abrams, Tarantino or the film Super-8 who seeded makers and decisionmakers at Kodak with the awareness that they have a viable and valuable product.

Kodak must have analysed the sales data and have concluded that S8 could do better with a supplier of new cameras. It would have been a hard task to find a camera-manufacturer who would design and produce a new range of cameras. Possibly one could have attemped to redesign a Leicina Special, Mekel VIC or some Beaulieu. Reducing the mechanics and fit modern electronics. Lucky coincidence for Kodak was now that Logmar had their new camera in beta-testing and had current expertise on designing a Super-8 camera.

Makes one wonder how many pieces Kodak expects to sell. And if they will make it before next Christmas :)

How is Logmar doing with their production of the final design? Working on the design and prototyping of the Kodak camera must have absorbed all resources of Logmar.

Let's hope the new interest works out for Ferrania too such that we can have reversal film again soon!
Lets not forget super8data.com ,
And those that choose to keep using film as there beloved Medium and absovled the rising cost in doing so . That means all of us on here :ymapplause:
It a market in the end based on Sliver ?


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by Will2 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:08 pm

I noticed what looked like an HDMI out. If that is for what shows up on the fold-out screen it would be a nice touch. I suppose you can use something like this to record it while you wait on dailies...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... ssist.html


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by Tscan » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:27 pm

Will2 wrote:I noticed what looked like an HDMI out. If that is for what shows up on the fold-out screen it would be a nice touch. I suppose you can use something like this to record it while you wait on dailies...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... ssist.html
I recall the fold out screen will just be SD resolution, but seems like the HDMI out provides an alternative. I bought an audio recorder last year that I can't wait to try plugging in, depending on how well the on board mic does.
Reborn member since Sept 2003


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Re: Kodak awakens, new S8 camera announced at CES '16

Post by Will2 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:59 pm

Makes me wonder how easy the audio syncing will be. It's tricky to do with a Zoom and a regular Super 8 camera...

I assume that you'll get a separate audio file each time the trigger is pulled and you'll manually sync it up with each cut. We could do this but I can't wait until they start getting the soccer mom calls on how this works!


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