Safety when using Foma R100 kit

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freddenacka
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Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by freddenacka » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:06 pm

Halo
I try to find information about this kit but don´t find.
How dangerous is this bleach?
I plan to use glows and eye protection.
Is it stupid to do this in the kitchen ore bathroom?

http://www.macodirect.de/download/Z_set_en.pdf

nikonr10
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by nikonr10 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:26 pm

freddenacka wrote:Halo
I try to find information about this kit but don´t find.
How dangerous is this bleach?
I plan to use glows and eye protection.
Is it stupid to do this in the kitchen ore bathroom?

http://www.macodirect.de/download/Z_set_en.pdf
Hi do homecooking in my kitchen all the time , treat it like you are in a darkroom and use comon sense , yes gloves all the time and eye protection is a must for the bleach , if you work clean and give you kitchen a good clean after , ie sink worktops etc , then all is well !

nikonr10
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by nikonr10 » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:59 pm

nikonr10 wrote:
freddenacka wrote:Halo
I try to find information about this kit but don´t find.
How dangerous is this bleach?
I plan to use glows and eye protection.
Is it stupid to do this in the kitchen ore bathroom?

http://www.macodirect.de/download/Z_set_en.pdf
Hi do homecooking in my kitchen all the time , treat it like you are in a darkroom and use comon sense , yes gloves all the time and eye protection is a must for the bleach , if you work clean and give you kitchen a good clean after , ie sink worktops etc , then all is well !
And a mask respirator for the Bleach ,

freddenacka
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by freddenacka » Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:17 am

I think it is strange that foma does not wright about this in the instruction

richard p. t.
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by richard p. t. » Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:58 pm

Here is the thing:

The bleach powder is carcinogenic (can cause cancer). You must avoid breathing the dust. So, when handling the powder, wear a mask. Better still, mix the bleach outside and be up wind of the container as your pour it.

Mixing the bleach also involves handling the sulphuric acid. I can't remember what dilution there is in the foma kit, but suffice it to say, sulphuric acid can burn right through you! You must be careful handling the acid. Careful means - Gloves, GLASSES, and never adding water to acid. ONLY ADD ACID TO WATER, not water to acid.

Once mixed, the bleach is no longer very dangerous to handle. HOWEVER you must clean up any splashes or drips straight away while still wet. This is because if a drip or splash dries, the potassium permangenate will turn back to a powdery form and can then get in the air and you can breath it in, which is where it is dangerous.

So, simple rule: gloves and glasses and acid to water. Avoid breathing dust of P. Permangenate powder. Clean up spills straight away.

While using the kit, you don't need glasses or a mask. A mask, if needed, is only while handling the P. permangenate powder.

Don't be too frightened. Just follow these simple precautions and you will be fine.
richard
I run Nano Lab - Australia's super8 ektachrome processing service
- visit nanolab.com.au
richard@nanolab.com.au

Angus
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by Angus » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:31 pm

A quick google search shows that the actual kit box and chemical bottles do have the requisite warnings and instructions.

I don't think *anything* available to the general public requires a respirator!

the bleach might be carcinogenic, although bear in mind that by the same definition so are certain vegetables such as parsnips. Now that potassium dichromate is pretty much unavailable to home users it's unlikely the kits contain anything especially nasty. The acid used will not be concentrated enough to burn right through you and even concentrated sulphuric acid would require you to bathe in it to do that.

However, it is wise to take basic precautions such as latex or rubber gloves and safety glasses especially if you are new to the process and not familiar with the chemicals.

Mild acid burns sting (especially if you have broken skin) and can stain your skin for a time but if washed with plenty of clean water quickly no harm is done. Do try to avoid inhaling any dust/powders and of course ensure you don't ingest any chemicals. If using the kitchen (as I do too) then mix your solutions in containers you're not planning on using for culinary use. Wash your surfaces and sink after well after. Ditto if using the bathroom which I have done also.

If home darkroom activities are an occasional hobby then you're highly unlikely to hurt yourself or damage your health. If it's a daily activity then cumulative effects of exposure to certain chemicals can be a concern.
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by carllooper » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:36 pm

I'd rather be over-cautious than under-cautious, regardless of any otherwise "reasonable" assumptions concerning the likelihood of dangerous chemistry being made available to the public.

That advice about cleaning up spills (because the solution will turn back into positively dangerous dust again) sounds to me like really really good advice. I'd follow that to the letter rather than possibly concluding it's merely wise. I'd make it mandatory more than a road to wisdom.

And to be frank (with apologies to Frank), the idea of mixing chemistry in the kitchen (or even bathroom for that matter) sounds to me to be a completely insane idea.

On the other hand, if your cautiousness (or complete paranoia) is too much, you'll develop a phobia about the wet lab - which is what I suffer from. And that's silly 'cause there are simple precautions, as Richard and Angus have elaborated, that allow one to do the job completely safely.

Carl

ps. I smoke cigarettes (and legally available to the public!), day in and day out, and if I survive death from cancer, it makes zero difference to anyone else's likelihood of surviving the same. Don't smoke cigarettes.
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/

nikonr10
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by nikonr10 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:06 am

carllooper wrote:I'd rather be over-cautious than under-cautious, regardless of any otherwise "reasonable" assumptions concerning the likelihood of dangerous chemistry being made available to the public.

That advice about cleaning up spills (because the solution will turn back into positively dangerous dust again) sounds to me like really really good advice. I'd follow that to the letter rather than possibly concluding it's merely wise. I'd make it mandatory more than a road to wisdom.

And to be frank (with apologies to Frank), the idea of mixing chemistry in the kitchen (or even bathroom for that matter) sounds to me to be a completely insane idea.

On the other hand, if your cautiousness (or complete paranoia) is too much, you'll develop a phobia about the wet lab - which is what I suffer from. And that's silly 'cause there are simple precautions that allow one to do the job completely safely.

Carl
Carl it really is very easy to do and safe ? that if you know what you are doing? ! The Bleach part is the one you need to be very careful with ,
Learning to loading the lomo tank was even more harder to learn ,been doing B/W ? E6 very easy /being mixing chemistry in the kitchen for over 20 year/s ?
just do it with care and work clean , Never used the foma kit there say the bleach is a one shot < so in the dark with that , !

carllooper
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by carllooper » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:33 am

nikonr10 wrote:Carl it really is very easy to do and safe ? that if you know what you are doing? ! The Bleach part is the one you need to be very careful with ,
Learning to loading the lomo tank was even more harder to learn ,been doing B/W ? E6 very easy /being mixing chemistry in the kitchen for over 20 year/s ?
just do it with care and work clean , Never used the foma kit there say the bleach is a one shot < so in the dark with that , !
Thanks Nikonr10.

Yes, while I have the phobia, I have come to terms with it - if only a little - I've successfully mixed the required chemisty from a kit, and worked with the bleach, and done the sulphuric acid thing etc, loaded a Lomo, done all the processing steps, with many invaluable thanks to Richard Touhey for showing me how easy and safely it is to do, and when I eventually found the courage to do it on my own - no problems at all - and got perfect results to boot (at least the second time I tried it).

But the phobia is still there. It's like my brain tells me its all fine (and it is all fine) but my stomach has it's own peculiar ideas about it. Eventually I'll get my stomach to agree with me.

But in any case I still figure it's good to give others good warning about this sort of stuff. It's all quite safe but only because there are the precautions. If you don't follow the precautions it's not safe. I don't think there's any two ways about that. My brain tells me that - not my stomach.

That all said, I certainly don't want to discourage anyone - quite the contrary - indeed if a paranoid, over-cautious, wet-lab phobic like myself can do it - I'd suggest anyone can. Easily.

Just don't put that orange stuff on your lunch, or put the acid in a bottle labeled lemonade, or do anything crazy or absent minded like that ...

cheers
C
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/

Angus
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by Angus » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:54 pm

Bear in mind that I've worked in laboratories for the last 15 years with chemicals that are far more hazardous than anything you can buy from a photographic equipment dealer.

While that has perhaps meant that I am more familiar with the processes and less fearful, it also means that I am well versed in assessing the risks of various chemicals and techniques.

I am not familiar with the Foma kit as I make my own bleach (using potassium dichromate and sulphric acid - now banned for sale to the public). But Foma's website mentions a hydriquinone developer. Hydroquinone is classified as "harmful" which .....to be honest....virtually every chemical is these days since they reclassified everything a few years ago. Much of what is in your kitchen for cooking would have a "harmful" sticker on it in my laboratories. It's a "class 3 carcinogen" which means it is "not classifiable as to carcinogenicity in humans".

The fixer is ammonium thiosulphate which is pretty safe too. Don't drink it because it causes irritation to your insides. Wear gloves as it can sometimes irritate your skin. There are no other health impacts of this one.

I don't know what's in the bleach but it is no longer permissable to sell dichromate based bleaches to the general public. Partly due to safety concerns. If people were handling the powder and dissolving in acid at home it could be dangerous to health....depends on if you know what you're doing. A ready made solution is fairly safe, very reusable and would require just basic caution such as wearing latex gloves. However I believe some areas didn't like dichromate bleaches going into the sewer/waste systems.

I do not know what is in the Foma bleach but I would say that if you read the instructions and warnings, follow the directions and take basic precautions as you would during a school chemistry class you will be fine. In all honesty you probably handled more dangerous chemicals if you studied chemistry up to the age of 16 at school than anything in a reversal developing kit.
The government says that by 2010 30% of us will be fat....I am merely a trendsetter :)

nikonr10
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by nikonr10 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:02 pm

Angus wrote:I make my own bleach (using potassium dichromate and sulphric acid -
Angus I make my bleach like this , How many films have you bleached using 1 litre ? also how long would this last for made up ? as have not dev any B/W films in over a year ? Just E6 !
And the Foma bleach is postassium permanganate .

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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by marc » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:09 pm

Sorry to go off topic but does anyone know what Kodak charges for their Super 8 Tri-x?
WHY DO YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS GOING THROUGH TSA SECURITY IN THE AIRPORT BUT ANYONE CAN CROSS THE BOARDER BETWEEN THE U.S. AND MEXICO WITH NO CHALLENGES WHATSOEVER? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

Angus
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by Angus » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:36 pm

There's no reason why the dichromate solution shouldn't last years. It's best kept in the dark, and replaced when/if it starts looking seriously discoloured. It should be a rather pleasing deep orange colour. A sediment on the bottom of the bottle is OK but if this starts becoming a problem (ie getting into your developing tank) then it's wise to filter the solution or think about replacing it.
The government says that by 2010 30% of us will be fat....I am merely a trendsetter :)

nikonr10
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by nikonr10 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:04 am

Angus wrote:There's no reason why the dichromate solution shouldn't last years. It's best kept in the dark, and replaced when/if it starts looking seriously discoloured. It should be a rather pleasing deep orange colour. A sediment on the bottom of the bottle is OK but if this starts becoming a problem (ie getting into your developing tank) then it's wise to filter the solution or think about replacing it.
Thank you Angus , for geting back too me on this ! good to know .

chrisgavin
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Re: Safety when using Foma R100 kit

Post by chrisgavin » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:16 am

My DIY cine film processing efforts so far have been entirely focused on BW neg film stocks. First the Argenti Super 8, then more recently some 16mm Kodak 'Surveillance' film.
It seems to me that any reversal film and more especially, colour film involves a real step-up to more complex processing methods, higher temperatures and much nastier chemicals too.
So at the moment for BW neg film I'm happy to mix up Caffenol C-M developer, I use a water stop bath and the fixer is the only commercial photo chemical I need (I've still got loads of ancient Hypofix packets I've inherited to work my way through.)
Buying old film and processing this way, just couldn't be any cheaper and 'fun' too!
I did process some BW stills film back in the day, so this process is all very familiar and I'm fairly comfortable with it...

But... I do have quite a bit of colour negative 16mm film in my fridge. Just one day I may have to buy one of these kits and try some colour processing.
I'm trying to judge how much of a leap this might be, and also quite concerned about handling some of the chemistry involved too.
I'm curious to try colour, just very wary ...
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