what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existed?

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slashmaster
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what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existed?

Post by slashmaster » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:56 am

Was wondering what double 8, double super 8 and even 16mm film you guys all wish existed but doesn't? Have been working on my film perforator today and am trying to be sure I'll have enough customers to make it worth while. What do you guys request? I think in another thread some of you guys wished vision 3 50 d existed in double super 8? What else might you guys want? Trying to get a feel for the demand before I get all the cnc machining done. One of the big problems I think I'll face is that I'll be able get 1 roll of double super 8 and a single roll of super 8 out of each roll of 35mm film, but how do I sell the single roll? I guess only the people with reloadable cartridges can use it.

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by Mana » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:18 am

How about some Velvia?
R8: Bolex B8

S8: Beaulieu 7008 Pro, Beaulieu 4008zm2 "Jubilee", Leicina Special, Eumig Nautica (24fps)

DS8: Bolex H8 Rex4

S16: Bolex Rex4

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by freddenacka » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:25 am

I would like to have a slow fine grain b/w double 8 negative film. Easy to load than super 8.
Double super 8 is good to and I would be able to split it and reload in a super 8 to.

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by kontrabass888 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:30 pm

I would like to see more low speed reversal film on market, I think that in few years there will be no proffesional film maker need film, so the marketing target should be amaters

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by Will2 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:55 pm

Mana wrote:How about some Velvia?
Velvia 50 or even 100 would be great.

As long as we're wishing, how about Kodachrome?

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by bolextech » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:01 pm

slashmaster wrote:Was wondering what double 8, double super 8 and even 16mm film you guys all wish existed but doesn't? Have been working on my film perforator today and am trying to be sure I'll have enough customers to make it worth while. What do you guys request? I think in another thread some of you guys wished vision 3 50 d existed in double super 8? What else might you guys want? Trying to get a feel for the demand before I get all the cnc machining done. One of the big problems I think I'll face is that I'll be able get 1 roll of double super 8 and a single roll of super 8 out of each roll of 35mm film, but how do I sell the single roll? I guess only the people with reloadable cartridges can use it.

Hi Slashmaster,

Yes, I did inquire with Kodak about the feasibility of releasing some long rolls of Vision3 color negative stocks in un-slit DS8 format.
They could very easily do this but they don't want to be bothered. I would imagine that the morale in Rochester is at an all-time low, despite the recent deal with Hollywood, because everybody still working in the motion picture department is going to loose their job sooner or later. For the price they quoted me (not to mention the very high minimum purchase requirement) the DS8 would actually be much more expensive than super8 in the familiar cartridges.
Considering this, I calculated that it would be cheaper to take any of the standard 35mm films, slit out a 16mm width and perf that to DS8, and discard the rest, assuming you get this work done somehow, which is close what you seem to be proposing.

When I put the word out there to evaluate interest, there were hardly any respondents and among those that did they were more interested in getting reversal stock, not negative.
Historically, DS8 was always less expensive than cartridged film. That was one of the main attractions in addition to the longer running times and the opportunity to use the excellent, professional quality DS8 cameras.

I don't know what your background is and if you are equipped to undertake such a task as putting together a professional perforator and slitter but I think it's safe to say that the market will never be very big for these specialized formats.
It would have to be more a labor of love than anything else. I don't believe there is any money to be made here.

On a technical note, it is my understanding that, for more accuracy, film stock is perforated first and slit afterwards. It would seem it is very difficult to successfully perf a single 8mm wide strip.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis
Jean-Louis Seguin
Motion Picture Camera Technician
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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by SurlaCraque » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:56 pm

I think all of us amateur film makers want a reversal stock that approximates what was available back in the day when these cameras were designed and sold. In the US you can buy very expensive E100D and some 100-125ASA B&W stuff. I'm finding that 100D is actually a little too fast for bright outdoor shooting. Common film stocks back in the day were in the ASA 12-40 range. Realistically, that means you should make some 50ASA color 8mm from Kodak if they still make it. I would definitely buy some color reversal 50ASA film if it was available.

Kodachrome is dead and gone, nobody has the chemistry to process it.

I guess I'm missing something, because shouldn't you be able to make 2 16mm strips from 35mm film stock? And therefore 2 double 8mm strips?

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by slashmaster » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:15 pm

Mana, where do I get Velvia cheap?

Freddenacka and Kontrabass888, I want the low speed stuff too but just what do you suggest? I'll probably be able to do a strip of super 8 you won't have to split.

Will2, if I did kodachrome where would you get it processed?

Bolextech, I think you just changed my plans! I did not know that you get better results putting the sprocket holes in before you split it. I'm going to have to rethink all this now! Are you saying the sprocket hole puncher spreads the film slightly wider at each sprocket? By the way, unlike the one kodak might have I plan on building only one hole puncher for regular 8/16mm and only one for super 8. After doing one side of the film I plan to turn it around to do the other. Only plan on running at a few frames a second for better accuracy.

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by slashmaster » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:29 pm

SurlaCraque wrote:I think all of us amateur film makers want a reversal stock that approximates what was available back in the day when these cameras were designed and sold. In the US you can buy very expensive E100D and some 100-125ASA B&W stuff. I'm finding that 100D is actually a little too fast for bright outdoor shooting. Common film stocks back in the day were in the ASA 12-40 range. Realistically, that means you should make some 50ASA color 8mm from Kodak if they still make it. I would definitely buy some color reversal 50ASA film if it was available.

Kodachrome is dead and gone, nobody has the chemistry to process it.

I guess I'm missing something, because shouldn't you be able to make 2 16mm strips from 35mm film stock? And therefore 2 double 8mm strips?
I don't think you can get E100D fresh in any format anymore. Glad you would buy the 50 asa stuff. I'll let you know if I do it!

The reason you can't make two 16mm strips out of 35mm is because the 35mm has sprocket holes on each side of it. So the 35mm sprocket holes have to get cut off and go to waste. Unless you can get kodak to sell you one without the 35mm sprocket holes, might be very difficult to find the right guy to talk to about doing that but would be great if I could.

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by JeremyC » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:57 pm

Can you tell us a bit more about your perforator

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by nikonr10 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:38 pm

slashmaster wrote:Was wondering what double 8, double super 8 and even 16mm film you guys all wish existed but doesn't? Have been working on my film perforator today and am trying to be sure I'll have enough customers to make it worth while. What do you guys request? I think in another thread some of you guys wished vision 3 50 d existed in double super 8? What else might you guys want? Trying to get a feel for the demand before I get all the cnc machining done. One of the big problems I think I'll face is that I'll be able get 1 roll of double super 8 and a single roll of super 8 out of each roll of 35mm film, but how do I sell the single roll? I guess only the people with reloadable cartridges can use it.
Not so long ago had chance to buy a canon DS8 at a good price ! why I did get it at the time ? because there not much in film type stock on DS 8 out there ,
And have enough super 8 cameras etc .
Would be good if you could offer all kinds of film's to order not just in ds but also in super 8 film if your rate.s are good I think there is market here ! for those that want to keep shooting film !

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by bolextech » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:44 pm

slashmaster wrote: Bolextech, I think you just changed my plans! I did not know that you get better results putting the sprocket holes in before you split it. I'm going to have to rethink all this now! Are you saying the sprocket hole puncher spreads the film slightly wider at each sprocket? By the way, unlike the one kodak might have I plan on building only one hole puncher for regular 8/16mm and only one for super 8. After doing one side of the film I plan to turn it around to do the other. Only plan on running at a few frames a second for better accuracy.
Don't change your plans just yet!
I am not saying results would necessarily be better as I am by no means an expert in this matter, but I have done a little bit of research on this.
From what I've seen, when going from 35mm to narrower widths, it appears that more often the perfing comes first and the slitting after.
There must a reason for this but I'm not sure what it is. I'm sure there are plenty of instances where it's the other way around too:
Edward Nowill's equipment can start with a 16mm width of film and perf that to double-8. However, he's not set up for DS8.
Kodak used to go from unperfed 35 to 32mm, then split that into 2x 16mm, perf it DS8 and then slit it again for single strand super8.
I'm not sure if that's still how they do it. The alternative is to go 35mm to 32mm. The 32mm is perfed for 4 rows of super8 in one pass and then split into 4 strands.

If you can get one 16mm wide strand and one 8mm wide strand from perforated 35mm that is already an accomplishment.
Then comes the perforating. I'm sure you've seen how perforators work. They are machines built to very high precision.

Jean-Louis
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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by slashmaster » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:43 pm

JeremyC wrote:Can you tell us a bit more about your perforator
It's a sewing machine where I replace the needle and bobin plate with my own cnc made parts. Going to have an adjustable registration pin so when I do polyester based film I can have slightly wider spacing. Polyester based film is known to shrink after a few years incase you didn't know. Only plan on building one sprocket hole punch so am going to do multiple passes to get the job done.

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by slashmaster » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:52 pm

nikonr10 wrote:
slashmaster wrote:Was wondering what double 8, double super 8 and even 16mm film you guys all wish existed but doesn't? Have been working on my film perforator today and am trying to be sure I'll have enough customers to make it worth while. What do you guys request? I think in another thread some of you guys wished vision 3 50 d existed in double super 8? What else might you guys want? Trying to get a feel for the demand before I get all the cnc machining done. One of the big problems I think I'll face is that I'll be able get 1 roll of double super 8 and a single roll of super 8 out of each roll of 35mm film, but how do I sell the single roll? I guess only the people with reloadable cartridges can use it.
Not so long ago had chance to buy a canon DS8 at a good price ! why I did get it at the time ? because there not much in film type stock on DS 8 out there ,
And have enough super 8 cameras etc .
Would be good if you could offer all kinds of film's to order not just in ds but also in super 8 film if your rate.s are good I think there is market here ! for those that want to keep shooting film !
Well I'm probably going to have a foot of single strip super 8 for every foot of everything else I do. I can get one 8mm and one 16mm strip out of the center of every 35mm roll. I'm just simply going to admit that making an injection mold for super 8 cartridges is biting off more than I can chew. So you'll have to have a reloadable cartridge if you want it.

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Re: what double 8 and double super 8 film do you wish existe

Post by slashmaster » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:57 pm

bolextech wrote:
slashmaster wrote: Bolextech, I think you just changed my plans! I did not know that you get better results putting the sprocket holes in before you split it. I'm going to have to rethink all this now! Are you saying the sprocket hole puncher spreads the film slightly wider at each sprocket? By the way, unlike the one kodak might have I plan on building only one hole puncher for regular 8/16mm and only one for super 8. After doing one side of the film I plan to turn it around to do the other. Only plan on running at a few frames a second for better accuracy.
Don't change your plans just yet!
I am not saying results would necessarily be better as I am by no means an expert in this matter, but I have done a little bit of research on this.
From what I've seen, when going from 35mm to narrower widths, it appears that more often the perfing comes first and the slitting after.
There must a reason for this but I'm not sure what it is. I'm sure there are plenty of instances where it's the other way around too:
Edward Nowill's equipment can start with a 16mm width of film and perf that to double-8. However, he's not set up for DS8.
Kodak used to go from unperfed 35 to 32mm, then split that into 2x 16mm, perf it DS8 and then slit it again for single strand super8.
I'm not sure if that's still how they do it. The alternative is to go 35mm to 32mm. The 32mm is perfed for 4 rows of super8 in one pass and then split into 4 strands.

If you can get one 16mm wide strand and one 8mm wide strand from perforated 35mm that is already an accomplishment.
Then comes the perforating. I'm sure you've seen how perforators work. They are machines built to very high precision.

Jean-Louis
Thanks for pointing all this out. Cutting after perfing makes sense even if we are not 100% sure of the reason why. I might try both methods. Still trying to decide if I should try to make a single roller to do all the slicing or multiple rollers.

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