Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

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Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by kontrabass888 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:21 am

I have been playing with super 8 film for some years.
According to the theory of super duper 8 or Max 8 system that we will get larger exposure area on the film, where was the sound track, after enlarge the film gate.

However, when I measured the film gate of my super 8 cameras,(Canon 814, Sankyo CME-1100, Braun Nizo 3056) I could see that all of them already can cover the sound track area, and there is only about 0.4mm to the border of the film.

So, I think why we don't see the full exposure area on projection, is because the projector's film gate is narrow, they cropped out the sound track area!

In fact, the exposure area of the super 8 system has already reached the limit of 8 mm film. It is a totally different story as the super 16 film.

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by bolextech » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:33 pm

The gain in image area is very small and IMHO not worth all the trouble.

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by cameratech » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:15 pm

I'd have to agree Jean-Louis!
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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by Nicholas Kovats » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:58 pm

Then again there is the native hybrid UltraPan8 3.1 camera system which utilizes the full 16mm width of Double Super 8 film to produce a frame that's 13mm wide. That's wider than Super 16 a significant increase in resolution and excellent rendition of filmic color space, i.e. https://vimeo.com/45620380
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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by kontrabass888 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:26 pm

This will be an absolutely brilliant solution to get cinemascope on 16mm system, but I am sure the conversion work for both of my 16mm camera and my 16mm projector will be very very expensive...

Just few days ago, I got a idea that to enlarge the film gate of bolex h8(relugar8) to get about 2.9x7.8mm expose area. it doesn't need any extra work than just enlarge the gate of both camera and projector, and shot with c mount lens for 16mm camera. So,the size will be: 2.9x7.8mm vs super 8: 4x6mm, it is actually still smaller than super 8 but much wider in horizon.

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by Nicholas Kovats » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:04 pm

UltraPan8 is wider than the Cinemascope aspect ratio, i.e. 2.8 vs 2.4. The conversion is relatively modest. Contact Jean-Louis Seguin directly for a quote regarding potential conversion of your Bolex H8 or H16 cameras. You might be surprised. I guess you previously missed our UltraPan8 project specifications. There are two variations, i.e.

1. UltraPan8 2.8 (camera = Bolex H8 or H16) uses the full 16mm width of Regular 8 film to produce a frame dimension of 10.52mm x 3.75mm (AREA = 39.45 square mm) with a native aspect ratio = 2.8. Approximately 10-11 cameras have been converted so far. We have doubled the run time relative to a 100 foot load (5 minutes), e.g. https://vimeo.com/39417454

2. UltraPan8 3.1 (camera = JK Camera Double Super 8 Bolex conversions) uses the full 16mm width of Double Super 8 film to produce a frame dimension of 13.00mm x 4.22mm (AREA = 54.86 square mm) with a native aspect ratio = 3.1. Approximately 2 cameras have been converted so far. We have doubled the run time relative to a 100 foot load (5 minutes), e.g. https://vimeo.com/45620380

Cheers!

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by kontrabass888 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:46 am

Thanks for information,
Your videos on vimeo are wonderful, and actually I had watched them before:)

I made some drawings to compare different ideas about panorama on 8mm .
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by aj » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:59 pm

kontrabass888 wrote: However, when I measured the film gate of my super 8 cameras,(Canon 814, Sankyo CME-1100, Braun Nizo 3056) I could see that all of them already can cover the sound track area, and there is only about 0.4mm to the border of the film.

So, I think why we don't see the full exposure area on projection, is because the projector's film gate is narrow, they cropped out the sound track area!
Cameras don't expose the soundtrack area. Some expose a curved area between the frame and the sprocket hole.
Projectors mask off the frame a bit.

Does anyone expect all these trouble to widen the gate were undertaken when there is no need and nothing to widen :)

To get extra area one needs to widen the gate. That way there is less loss when the image is masked for 16:9 ate teleciné
Check the inventor's website - friendly fire - by Perkins and Palidwor for some images and an explanation.
Pro8 is not the inventor.
Kind regards,

André

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by kontrabass888 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:20 pm

I uploaded some pics with drawings about different types of wide screen , if we need only 16:9 or 16:10, Max8 will be the best choice,
but if go wider than 16:9, it doesn't show the superiority any more if compare with the regular 8 with enlarged gate.

I have calculated the cost and the image quality for 8mm cinemascope format:
According to the price of http://www.kahlfilm.de

Regular8 with enlarged gate// 7.6mm x 2.56mm// 44EUR per 5 and half min// Quality : Fair value of Money : Good
Max8 //6.2mm x 4.01mm// 44EUR per 5 min //Quality poor: it can't go wider than 6.2 mm, Value of Money: good
Ultra Pan 8 with double 8 film //10mm x 3.3mm // 97EUR per 5 and half min //Quality: good Value of Money : fair
Ultra Pan 8 with DS 8 film // 12.5mm x 4.01mm//97EUR per 5 min //Quality: Excellent Value of Money: fair

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by carllooper » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:57 pm

Here's a similar discussion, although diverts off on other tangents:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23002

Image
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kontrabass888
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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by kontrabass888 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:19 pm

thanks for pasting the link, I scanned it quickly, but I can't agree with their calculation for the cost.
maybe the price in North America are different than Europe, but any way, the ultra pan 8 will cost as double as max8 and regular 8, even they cost half of 16mm system.

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by carllooper » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:25 am

kontrabass888 wrote:thanks for pasting the link, I scanned it quickly, but I can't agree with their calculation for the cost.
maybe the price in North America are different than Europe, but any way, the ultra pan 8 will cost as double as max8 and regular 8, even they cost half of 16mm system.
Yes, that was actually by me - just grabbed some random prices from North America and Australia. You can obviously get better or worse deals around the place. I eventually found out that it wasn't quality, cost or convenience that helped me in any way to make any decision whatsoever. It was ultimately creative decisions that were required. I've ended up buying into a range of formats and quite happy with that. My favourite is UltraPan8 though. But that's only because I have a project for delivery on 35mm anamorphic and UP8 is providing a kind of nice fit for that. Actually I can't even recall if that's really the case. It might have been the anamorphic delivery channel being a function of questions on how UltraPan8 might be screened. 35mm was always the delivery channel. Anyway ...

C
Last edited by carllooper on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by kontrabass888 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:46 am

Well, I play with film only for fun, I think the film market will either go cheaper or be dead after all film maker stop to using the film :roll:
But, now , on my holiday, I would like to experience different ideas with my "friends" who always stay in the glass showcase :D

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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by carllooper » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:49 am

kontrabass888 wrote:Well, I play with film only for fun, I think the film market will either go cheaper or be dead after all film maker stop to using the film :roll:
But, now , on my holiday, I would like to experience different ideas with my "friends" who always stay in the glass showcase :D
For fun - yes - that's the best reason of all.

C
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Re: Is the super duper 8 or max 8 a scam?

Post by kontrabass888 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:21 am

I just bought a Bolex D8L 8mm camera on ebay, and I found some online pics of the shutter and the gate of this camera,

http://cinetinker.blogspot.be/2013/01/s ... x-d8l.html

It looks like it doesn't have much space to enlarge the exposing area :roll:

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