Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

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mortron
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Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by mortron » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:34 pm

I already posted this question in the forum, but got no reply so I'm reposting because I'm still stumped.

I just opened a cartridge of V50D and I am a bit confused as to why its speed notch is the size it is.
This film is daylight stock so naturally the cartridge has no filter notch. As it has no filter notch though surely
it should have a 64T/40D sized notch instead, rather than the 40T/25D notch that it has. I can see why they
would go for the 40T/25D notch, as it can be used in all cameras this way, but surely it should have a filter notch, right?
As it stands the camera will read the film as 25 D. It would make more sense if there was a filter notch so that it would
be read as 40T, or am I missing something here?

Cheers,
Josh

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by Andersens Tears » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:55 pm

I can understand your confusion Josh, but you are overthinking it a little.

Velvia 50D does not need a filter notch as it is a daylight balanced film - the filter notch is for tungsten balanced films - without a filter notch, the internal colour conversion filter (for colour correctiong tungsten balanced films in daylight) is automatically removed and thus you get the "40T" rating. Your confusion stems from mixing up 25D (25 ASA The "Daylight" rating for Kodachrome 40 - a tungsten balanced film) and Velvia 50D which is a daylight balanced film rated at 50ASA.

The "40T" ASA rating on the camera is when there is no colour conversion filter in the light path - as tungsten balanced film did not require colour correcting under artificial light - No filter is needed for daylight balanced films either!

So, put your roll of velvia in you camera and shoot - it will work fine.

Probably best to manually set the filter switch to the "bulb" setting to be sure.

Have fun!

Jamie

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by Andersens Tears » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:00 pm

mortron wrote: As it stands the camera will read the film as 25 D. Josh
Just to confim - no, it does not reed Velvia 50D as 25D it will be read as 40T as the filter will be removed automatically (on 99% of cameras) which is why this such a great stock!

Like I said probably best to removed the filter manually to be sure!

Jamie

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by mortron » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:44 am

Hey Jamie,

I really, really appreciate the reply.

I don't think I explained myself properly because you misunderstood me.

I know that daylight doesn't need a filter notch, but what I was asking is
that with that speed notch size -- ie the same as 40T -- V50D should have a filter
notch to be read as 40ASA, because it is read as 25D.

When I talk about 25D I am not talking about what 40T is basically equivalent to
when the 85 filter is in place - I am talking about the notch size of 40T/25D.

Every notch size has two different speeds, and which the camera runs depends on whether
or not the cartridge has the filter notch or not. So for the V50D speed notch size it would
only be read at 40ASA is there was a filter notch.

What I was asking with my OG post was why they didn't cut the the notch for this size.
I get that they didn't want to go for the 64T / 40D size notch because this isn't read
by all cameras. So the only way to make sure every camera reads it is as 40 is to use
the 40T/25D notch because every automatic camera can read this, but they didn't cut
the bottom notch, so its read as 25.

That was what I was getting at. But your post has confused me even more now as you say
it isn't rated at 25 but 40.

I feel 100% positive that it is read as 25ASA. What's going on?

Cheers,
Josh

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by Mana » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:34 am

Isn't 25asa compensating for the filter?
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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by mortron » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:07 am

Yes the speed is equivalent to 25 when using 40T but I am not talking.
I was trying to say that In the last post that I am not talking about the 85 filter speed, but the
speed I think this is rated at natively.

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by mortron » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:10 am

*Yes the speed is equivalent to 25 when using 40T with the filter engaged but I am not talking about that.

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by richard p. t. » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:52 am

Hi Morton,
you are quite correct in everything you have said about velvia 50d. It is being notched as 25d. it would be theoretically better for it to be notched as 40d. You are quite correct that an alternative notching would be to notch it as 40T and insist that people manually remove the internal 85 filter. That would theoretically guarantee compatibility in every super 8 camera. Notching as 40d would mean some cameras would still rate it as 25d (those 40/160, 25/100 cameras of which there are a lot). As it is, theoretically cameras that can detect a wide range of asa ratings will read it as 25 asa daylight, 40/160, 25/100 cameras will rate it as 25 asa daylight and some cameras like the Bauers that don't have filter notch detectors will rate it as 40 asa when the filter is manually switched out.
One solution is simply to modify the notch to suit your camera. If you have a fancy camera that can read many asa ratings, increase the size of the notch by 2.5mm. If you have a basic 40/160, 25/100 camera, cut in a filter notch then manual remove the internal 85 filter.
This is all theoretically correct. However in practice, it hasn't proven to be a big issue in my experience selling this stock.
cheers,
richard
I run Nano Lab - Australia's super8 ektachrome processing service
- visit nanolab.com.au
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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by Andersens Tears » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:37 am

richard p. t. wrote:Hi Morton,
you are quite correct in everything you have said about velvia 50d. It is being notched as 25d. it would be theoretically better for it to be notched as 40d. You are quite correct that an alternative notching would be to notch it as 40T and insist that people manually remove the internal 85 filter.
richard
Well, this is what is written on the boxes from Wittner - they tell you to remove the daylight filter when you load the cartridge. Agreed not eveyone can read German. I have always done this in the 5+ years that l have shot the stock in various cameras including Bauers, Nizos, Canons, Elmos and Minoltas. I have always removed the filter and got the 40 rating. If they are notched as 25d/40t, then l have been shooting them as 40t.

Of course , l have not shot 50D from Spectra or had the Cinevia rolls, so l do not know what is written on those carts.

I suspect that Josh has Wittner packaged stock.
Last edited by Andersens Tears on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by Andersens Tears » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:44 am

mortron wrote:Hey Jamie,

I really, really appreciate the reply.

I don't think I explained myself properly

Cheers,
Josh
No Josh, it was my fault for not reading your question properly! I apologise for that!

I assumed that you saw that advice from Wittner to remove the daylight filter to get the 40T rating. I have slways shot this way in many cameras without issue.

Richard is a great sourcec of technical information, and you should listen to him!

I always base my advice on practical experience as l my technical knowledge is limited.

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by mortron » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:28 pm

Hey Richard,

Thanks for confirming my thoughts.
What I want to know though is why V50D is notched like this.
I have looked at both Wittner and Cinevia cartridges and they are both notched for 40T / 25D -
there must be a reason why all the companies have done this.

Is the Spectra cartridge the same too or is it different? I am not sure because I just
looked on your site Richard and you say that of the Spectra V50D, "All 40/160 cameras will read this film as 40 asa".
I guessed that it must be different, but looking at your picture of the cartridge it also looks like the 40T / 25D notch
size and it doesn't look like it has a filter notch either.

Jamie, when you say "I have always removed the filter and got the 40 rating" do you mean that you set the camera to
the bulb symbol (ie disengage filter) and this tells the camera that it is 40? As I understand it, because their is no filter notch
on this cartridge, it depresses the the cameras filter pin so when you've used this in the past, regardless of the filter position,
it would have still been rated as 25D because the camera will now be using that notch size's daylight rating. This is how it works on most
cameras anyway, obviously not the ones without the internal pin like the laters Bauers as Richard mention, and some other cameras too
which are also different.

You are also right about companies telling people to remove the filter to use this film as I read this on Cinevia's site too.
I guess by this they are just talking about the cameras like the Bauer that don't have the filter pin - they are the ones
that need to be set to bulb


Cheers again,
Josh

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by Andersens Tears » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:44 pm

mortron wrote:Hey Richard,

Jamie, when you say "I have always removed the filter and got the 40 rating" do you mean that you set the camera to
the bulb symbol (ie disengage filter) and this tells the camera that it is 40? As I understand it, because their is no filter notch
on this cartridge, it depresses the the cameras filter pin so when you've used this in the past, regardless of the filter position,
it would have still been rated as 25D because the camera will now be using that notch size's daylight rating. This is how it works on most
cameras anyway, obviously not the ones without the internal pin like the laters Bauers as Richard mention, and some other cameras too
which are also different.

Cheers again,
Josh
Hi Josh, as mentioned in my post on your other thread - the only footage I have to hand was shot with a late Bauer and a late Minolta - and the footage seem reall well exposed - so this is why i believe the film was rated as 40 asa by these cameras, as a rating of 25asa would mean one full f-stop overexposure and with colour reversal film that is really noticeable - unless the lattitude of Fuji Velvia 50D is better than that of Kodak K40, 64T or 100D - as 1 full f-stop of overexposure with those stocks is really noticable!

So I have to conceed that Wittnerchrome 50D is notched as 25D - but this makes no sense - which of course was your original concern.

Wittnerchrome 100D was notched as 64D/100T - which also made no sense either.

Cheers,

Jamie

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by mortron » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:42 pm

This is why it is so confusing as all the footage I've seen looks fine, nothing like 1 stop overexposure.
Everywhere says to put the cartridge straight in and shoot so I think this is what everybody does when using the film.

I just compared the light reading on a K40 cartridge with the filter in and a velvia cartridge and they are the same,
so the V50D is definitely reading as 25ASA - at least in a 1014XLS. I think what I will do is test a cartridge in a few
different cameras at both 40 and 25ASA and compare the results. I am just as confused as you in with the fact that
the results seem to come out perfectly at what seems to be 25ASA though.

Did Wittner give any instructions for the use of their 100D or did they expect the cartridge to be used without any
adjustments? I just had a quick look at some examples of Wittners 100D and that too seems to be well exposed in
all cases not overexposed just like the V50D does.

Cheers again,
Josh

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by Andersens Tears » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:06 pm

mortron wrote:This is why it is so confusing as all the footage I've seen looks fine, nothing like 1 stop overexposure.
Everywhere says to put the cartridge straight in and shoot so I think this is what everybody does when using the film.

I just compared the light reading on a K40 cartridge with the filter in and a velvia cartridge and they are the same,
so the V50D is definitely reading as 25ASA - at least in a 1014XLS. I think what I will do is test a cartridge in a few
different cameras at both 40 and 25ASA and compare the results. I am just as confused as you in with the fact that
the results seem to come out perfectly at what seems to be 25ASA though.

Did Wittner give any instructions for the use of their 100D or did they expect the cartridge to be used without any
adjustments? I just had a quick look at some examples of Wittners 100D and that too seems to be well exposed in
all cases not overexposed just like the V50D does.

Cheers again,
Josh
I have just done the same with a 1014xl-s and yes it is reading it as 25ASA - I just hacked the cart by cutting a filter notch and the 1014xl-s now reads the cart as 40ASA - I think I will shoot a roll and see what the results are like.

I don't remember any specific instructions or reasons to why it was notched as 64D/100T - but I shot lots of it in my 1014xl-s and it looked good.

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Re: Velvia 50 Super 8 Notch Size Question

Post by mortron » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:15 pm

Did you make any adjustments of did you shoot it overexposed?

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