The end is near.

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carllooper
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Re: The end is near.

Post by carllooper » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:04 am

MovieStuff wrote:With the exception of color negative, there hasn't been an improvement in image quality for 8mm in decades and, ironically, color negative on 8mm requires digital transfer to be viable.
This does tend to misrepresent negative film. The "negative" aspect of such film is not a function of any decisions on the part of the manufacturer. It is a function of the materials. Now this fact of nature does require, in the absence of alternative techniques (such as reversal), that a print is required in order to obtain a positive image.

Now making a print, because you have to make a print (whether film or digital), is only one of the reasons you might want to (or need to) make a print. But there are other reasons as well. For example, you might want to complete the work as a print for multiple distribution purposes. Or a digital print may be required for digital distribution channels. And in this context, choosing negative film (or manufacturers providing such film) is a good idea.

It is only in that context where film vs digital debates have become heated to the point that one feels compelled to swear some sort of allegiance to one over the other. "Your either with us or against us". But this an entirely artificial choice. In reality there is no need whatsoever to make such a choice.

So in reality there is nothing particularly ironic about using negative film for originating digital work.

Carl
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Re: The end is near.

Post by MovieStuff » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:11 pm

carllooper wrote: So in reality there is nothing particularly ironic about using negative film for originating digital work.
It is within the context of comparing digital to 8mm film, which is what I was doing. I've shot entire features on color negative in 35mm and 16m so I am very familiar with its properties and advantages for printing and projection. But projection really isn't a viable option for 8mm color negative.

Roger

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Re: The end is near.

Post by carllooper » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:34 pm

MovieStuff wrote:
carllooper wrote: So in reality there is nothing particularly ironic about using negative film for originating digital work.
It is within the context of comparing digital to 8mm film, which is what I was doing.
Yes. And quite right too. The context is very important there. And Roger's main argument is, in any case, quite correct methinks.

I upgraded from a Canon514 to a 1014XLS back in the day. I stopped making Super8 films in about 1985, when the 1014 was stolen rather than for any other reason. Last year I started again: "upgrading" to a Leicina Special having worked in CGI, video, 16mm, digital, and 35mm during the intervening years. However today, for me at least, it is no longer a question of which is "better/cheaper/faster" (the NASA formula). Or rather: no longer just that.

The next great paradigm shift in industrial art technology will involve the exploitation of fundamental forces that are neither analog nor digital but an "entanglement" of both and characterised by equations first elaborated in the 1920s. Quantum mechanics.

In this domain, light (as much as anything else) is characterised in terms of both an analog component (called a wave function) and a digital component (called a particle detection). But it is not a case of conversion (or not) between one and the other, or a this/that choice but a radical decisiveness/indecisiveness between the two. It will be in the exploitation of this [in>decidability, inherent in the fundamental nature of the material universe, that will deliver unimaginably massive computational power and possibilities.

These ideas can be explored ahead of the game, through experiments in either/both analog and/or digital systems. Indeed such ideas have been prefigured by film makers such as Alain Resnais. Last Year at Marienbad is an important film in this respect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbWwrMzhT-A

Deleuze refers to what he calls the in-compossible at work in such a film.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compossibility


Side note.

The Belgian philosopher, Henri Vanlier, has argued that photographs are inherently digital because they are obtained by the conversion of silver particles into "darkened/not darkened", that is, a choice "yes/no", or "0/1".

However this does not take into account that important variables in a definition of the silver particles are their position, size and distribution, which are not digital.

A counter-argument might be that such variables, insofar as they have an arbitrary value, are unimportant. Indeed pre-digital theorists positioned the arbitrary as the antithesis of the analog. This can lead to an incorrect formula (conflation) where the arbitrary is equated with the digital. But the original proposition is an incorrect formula. The cinema, in particular, does not seek to distance itself from the arbitrary. On the contrary the arbitrary is that which distinguishes cinema from earlier forms of philosophical art. The arbitrary, whether analytic (dada) and/or purely synthetic, has a particularly fundamental role in the cinema (whether analog and/or digital). Scripts, cinematography, acting styles - there is a movement to endow or otherwise extract a sense of the arbitrary. The accidental. But not noise. The fortutious. Whether actual or virtual. Macgiver just happens to find the right set of materials with which to construct an ad hoc solution to some immediate life threatening problem. Or a detective, listening to some arbitrary conversation at the next table, at breakfast, just happens to ignite an "of course" brainwave that solves the whodunnit. Or the dear hunter, seeing the deer in a particularly evocative but simultaneously arbitrary light, decides not to shoot it.

Carl
Last edited by carllooper on Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The end is near.

Post by marc » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:38 am

It's over. Or soon to be. Let's all just face the facts! Now, for those die hards that want to cling for dear life while the Titanic is going down. Go to the classifieds section and see if there is any items that I posted that you might fancy.
WHY DO YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS GOING THROUGH TSA SECURITY IN THE AIRPORT BUT ANYONE CAN CROSS THE BOARDER BETWEEN THE U.S. AND MEXICO WITH NO CHALLENGES WHATSOEVER? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

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Re: The end is near.

Post by carllooper » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:02 am

marc wrote:It's over. Or soon to be. Let's all just face the facts! Now, for those die hards that want to cling for dear life while the Titanic is going down. Go to the classifieds section and see if there is any items that I posted that you might fancy.
As Deleuze once said: it is infinitely easier to prevent film makers from doing their work.

I don't know if selling life jackets to those in the water strengthens whatever argument is being attempted here.

If I was on the Titanic I'd cling for life.

Carl
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Re: The end is near.

Post by marc » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:41 am

carllooper wrote:
I don't know if selling life jackets to those in the water strengthens whatever argument is being attempted here.
I Don't want to sell you a life jacket, I want to sell you the Titanic. Because that is what you are clinging to. Now go to the classifieds and select one of my Titanics for sale.
carllooper wrote:If I was on the Titanic I'd cling for life.
Exactly, I have a few Titanics in the classifieds that you can cling to!
WHY DO YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS GOING THROUGH TSA SECURITY IN THE AIRPORT BUT ANYONE CAN CROSS THE BOARDER BETWEEN THE U.S. AND MEXICO WITH NO CHALLENGES WHATSOEVER? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

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Re: The end is near.

Post by Tscan » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:28 pm

We've been having this discussion on here since at least 2003. In that time digital has advanced by leaps and bounds while Super 8 has continued to gain popularity. It's still widely used by pro's and enthusiasts as an artistic modality that has a strong iconic palate... independant of digital video. I think the technical evolution of digital video is starting to level off. Things don't progress evenly forever. if they did, we would have cities in space by now. And digital has yet to replace or accurately mimic the asthetic of film. When it does, i will sell my gear too. Untill it does, film of all guages will be around to fufill its purpose. I'd also like to note that I just saw a feature shot with the Red cam... it looked like a Mexican soap opera and suffered for it. If the look sucks now, it won't get any better.
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Re: The end is near.

Post by carllooper » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:46 pm

marc wrote:
carllooper wrote:If I was on the Titanic I'd cling for life.
Exactly, I have a few Titanics in the classifieds that you can cling to!
So how is clinging to the Titanic clinging for life?
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Re: The end is near.

Post by themagickite » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:43 am

MovieStuff
i get your point about S8 camera options, i'd not really thought about it that way before. However it very obvious now that i think about it, and i guess (if i'm totally honest with myself) I apply the same level of consumption urge that i criticize digital for encouraging, to my own purchases of old things like super8 cameras. I can still sleep easy knowing i'm recycling though :wink: I do feel very strongly about looking after these things (old or new) so that others may also use and appreciate them down the track.

Carl (my name is also Carl btw!)
interesting points about the nature of analog and digital. i've always thought of cinema as a digital process, it segments each second into 24 bits (or 18) whereas something like analog audio tape captures a continuous waveform.

as far as the titanic argument goes, i'd rather be able to tell the story of how I survived such a famous shipwreck, than regret not sticking around and looting all the jewels inside the cabins while I still could.
you can either go digital now or if S8 does die you can go digital then. whatever digital camera you buy from the money you got from selling your super8 cameras while they're still relevant, will be obsolete by the time super8 carts are no longer available anyway.

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Re: The end is near.

Post by carllooper » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:44 am

themagickite wrote:Carl (my name is also Carl btw!)
interesting points about the nature of analog and digital. i've always thought of cinema as a digital process, it segments each second into 24 bits (or 18) whereas something like analog audio tape captures a continuous waveform.
That's quite true. The temporal axis is digital.
as far as the titanic argument goes, i'd rather be able to tell the story of how I survived such a famous shipwreck, than regret not sticking around and looting all the jewels inside the cabins while I still could.
you can either go digital now or if S8 does die you can go digital then. whatever digital camera you buy from the money you got from selling your super8 cameras while they're still relevant, will be obsolete by the time super8 carts are no longer available anyway.
The Titanic argument was just me deconstructing the other guy's analogy - turning it back upon him. I was playing with his meaning in an attempt to draw out an argument from him - ie. one that was more than just his assertion that "Super8/film users are doomed".

Why are they doomed? I don't intend to lie down in a grave if and when Super8 dies. I mean I thought it ended years ago anyway. I'm just very happy it hasn't.

Carl
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Re: The end is near.

Post by winbert » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:04 am

grainy wrote:
Conversely, WalMart is a nasty, mean-spirited organization that has run down thousands of small towns in the US. They also censor music, and have terrible labor pratices.
I wouldn't expect them to develop 8mm or super 8, and wouldn't patronize them either way.
G
I wonder, why when talking about Walmart, either in this forum or Brad's 8mmforum which I follow very often, suddenly many members become another "Che", i.e anti-capitalism.

Like it or not Walmart will be there, and it bring the country's economic to run.

In particular on 8mm processing done by Walmart, if $7/cart (no postage) vs. $12 (+ postage) via Dwyane truly can save your money, why don't you use the Walmart route.

The money that you can save is to buy another cartridges, and this is what make this hobby alive.

The other thing I found, members say that using Walmart route will kill Dwayne. It will not, because Walmart will send the cartridges to Dwayne anyway. I have received a confirmation from Krystal of Dwayne that they handle the Walmart route, and they do not suffer because of this deal. How can it be? What I can think is that Walmart SUBSIDIZES us for bigger catches? What is their catch, I don't know, but Walmart is here for doing business and they have their own strategy. Don't you want to take the advantage of this?

One last thing that almost many members are forgetting that we need new bloods in this hobby. Those who are still in the high school or college need to know about 8mm film shooting. But if they found at the first stage that to get 50' processed will cost them $40 ($18 film stock + $12 lab process + $10 shipping v.v) most likely they will be discouraged and choose digital instead.

But with the Walmart route they can save money and will encourage many new blood to shoot 8mm. And this is what keeping this hobby alive.

It is my 2 cents,

winbert

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Re: The end is near.

Post by ECNtoo » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:54 am

winbert wrote:
grainy wrote:
Conversely, WalMart is a nasty, mean-spirited organization that has run down thousands of small towns in the US. They also censor music, and have terrible labor pratices.
I wouldn't expect them to develop 8mm or super 8, and wouldn't patronize them either way.
G
I wonder, why when talking about Walmart, either in this forum or Brad's 8mmforum which I follow very often, suddenly many members become another "Che", i.e anti-capitalism.

Like it or not Walmart will be there, and it bring the country's economic to run.

In particular on 8mm processing done by Walmart, if $7/cart (no postage) vs. $12 (+ postage) via Dwyane truly can save your money, why don't you use the Walmart route.

The money that you can save is to buy another cartridges, and this is what make this hobby alive.

The other thing I found, members say that using Walmart route will kill Dwayne. It will not, because Walmart will send the cartridges to Dwayne anyway. I have received a confirmation from Krystal of Dwayne that they handle the Walmart route, and they do not suffer because of this deal. How can it be? What I can think is that Walmart SUBSIDIZES us for bigger catches? What is their catch, I don't know, but Walmart is here for doing business and they have their own strategy. Don't you want to take the advantage of this?

One last thing that almost many members are forgetting that we need new bloods in this hobby. Those who are still in the high school or college need to know about 8mm film shooting. But if they found at the first stage that to get 50' processed will cost them $40 ($18 film stock + $12 lab process + $10 shipping v.v) most likely they will be discouraged and choose digital instead.

But with the Walmart route they can save money and will encourage many new blood to shoot 8mm. And this is what keeping this hobby alive.

It is my 2 cents,

winbert
I've run into people that hate Wal-Mart. They are very similar to those people that I meet who basically yell at you for not using a Mac. Both groups have different motivations. I'm not pointing figures at anybody but some of those I've met and the ones that complain about Wal-Mart have so far been disenfranchised poeple, poor, anti system..well, you get the picture. Like I said, I am not talking about anybody on the board at all. I'm only talking about people I have met. That's my disclaimer.

I generally don't not shop stores. I try and avoid buying stuff from certain countries. Those that treat animals like crap or poison the environment with no concerns only get my money when I have to. They actually give a decent amount to charity, probably more than many similar chains do. At the end of the day they offer cheap processing. We don't get that in Canada. It's a bummer. The price they charge is so cheap and easy that I can see newblood being far more interested. DS8 is already half the cost of doing super8 with all things being equal and I imagine it would be even cheaper through Wal-Mart. As in maybe $6.40 a film and processing cost per minute (if I have my figures right). This is something to be celebrated, not bitched about, otherwise it will dissapear.

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Re: The end is near.

Post by mr8mm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:41 pm

I recently gave 6 100D carts to Walmart for processing. 5 were returned within 2 weeks. One was misrouted to a video transfer service. I called the FUJI customer service number on the processing envelope and was assured that FUJI still processes 8mm by sending to Dwayne's. I was told to resubmit the film with special handling/rush processing and directed to the individual that would take care of the problem. Within one week the processed cart was returned.

If you are having trouble at Walmart with 8mm processing, call the FUJI help number and explain your problem. They will give you directions on how to get the film processed.

Why not take advantage of this service.

John S.

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