Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by jpolzfuss » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:49 am

super8man wrote:Jpg will never go away and neither will AVI or most other formats.
Yawn... I've already heard this sentence for too many file-formats (Koala-Painter, ILBM, PhotoCD, Word for DOS, ...). You might be lucky to find a converter. But will it convert without losses?
super8man wrote:The big fear is a hard drive failure taking away your archives.
Another fear is a virus/worm/whatever like this one: "The worm will then search all drives which are connected to the infected computer and replace files with the extensions *.JPG, *.JPEG, *.VBS, *.VBE, *.JS, *.JSE, *.CSS, *.WSH, *.SCT, *.DOC *.HTA with copies of itself, while appending to the file name a .VBS. extension."
The worm could have also removed or damaged the files...
kontrabass wrote:A new Olympus Pen EPL cost 400 -500 EUR shoot as long as the memory card can afford.
Another part missing in your calculations:
In 3-5 years the Olympus' batteries will be dead. And it uses an "Olympus only"-rechargeable battery that now costs 5-15 EUR, but will then cost 99EUR (if it's still available at all). Not to mention that in 3-5 years you will not be able to connect your camera to a new computer as USB-ports and will be replaced by a "Hyperfirewire-eSATA-4.0"-connector (or something similar). And SD/SDHC will not be supported any more as well either. Even if you find a card-reader that still supports SD/SDHC, you might have problems with the FAT-format used by the Olympus. And of course in 3-5 years you will not be able to buy a new SD/SDHC-card any more (even though your card will have reached its maximum number of write-accesses by then).
In other words: You can expect to have to by a new camera in 3-5 years for another 400-500 EUR.

Jörg
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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by kontrabass » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:17 pm

A lot of young people (such as me, I start with 16mm 4 years ago) are intereting to shoot with film, however, there is no more factory to product amateur or semi pro model camera any more. Only some modification and maintenance version are availabe with very expensive price by pro8mm or wittner... Well you will say that there are many choices on ebay. but look, I bought my Beaulieu R16 4 years ago for 300 EUR and repaired at Bjorn Anderson for 150 EUR, and this year I bought 7 super 8 cam, from 20-85EUR, they are cheap but none of them are in perfect condition even it looks nice. I am not sure they will always work, and if send them to service to make a overhul, it will cost at least 150 EUR for each. and some service can't be done such as viewfinder cleaning...

Howerver the price of new cameras are too high,it makes the starting cost impossible for young people who are curious to try every thing. it is reducing the film user group and limit the growing of the market. But other way arround, if some company such as pro8 and wittner could keep the price of some brand new low end and middle range model Cine camera in a very low range to fascinate more film user, the film market will be expanded and keep growing in the digital age in 21st century.

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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by Angus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:22 pm

Blue Audio Visual wrote:I'm sure it's feasible, but I struggle to see what the hell the point would be???

There would be a point, but a limited number of people would be interested. For example, most super 8 cameras already have excellent optics, manual exposure control and can do little tricks such as fades. The better cameras have phenomenal zoom lenses. This is all 'ready to go' if you insert a cartridge with a digital recorder inside it. The sensor would be small but no smaller than that in a smartphone, some of which can record hours of HD video.

What I would REALLY like is a digital back for my aging Praktica film SLR cameras. I have a boat load of lenses and other attachments such as slide copiers, filters etc. The cameras feature old fashioned shutter and aperture control, which I find far quicker than menu systems on DLSR's.

I only own one DSLR, which by now is an aging Nikon D50. Nice though it undoubtedly is....I'd prefer to use film.

The future of film and super 8 in particular....the immediate future is quite safe. Kodak aren't going to drop it any time especially soon...but sales will likely continue to drop. For amateurs, the dropping of K40 and yellow mailers is an issue because prices jumped with the loss of the Swiss lab and process paid film. However, for what you get...the film is actually quite well priced. The problem for amateurs is that for most people video is 'good enough'. I personally find film more fun, more creative. For pros, super 8 has a strong niche market and its look cannot quite be mimicked by video and plug-ins.
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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by Angus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:34 pm

super8man wrote:the concern is the crash of the hard drive. Jpg will never go away and neither will AVI or most other formats.

Hmm...that's what they said when I created loads of 256 colour gif files on my Atari ST back in the period 1989-1992.

Now find an off-the-peg, mainstream, shareware/cheap program that can deal with them?

The fact is we simply don't know for sure that jpeg and mpeg will not disappear. The mpeg 2 which is pretty popular now will go by the wayside as better codecs come about. Arguably DVD's are the only reason why it remains popular today. When Blu-Rya (mpeg4) becomes the standard, will mainstream playback software continue to support mpeg2? What about the millions of mpeg2 files? Gone and forgotten.

Hard drive crash is, however, a huge concern. How many of us, as film-makers of one sort or another, have several hundred gig or even terabytes of video and audio data? Even Mr Average with his hard disc camcorder from Santa Claus might well have a few gig of Junior's first steps or the Mrs tipsy at Christmas.

And ask yourself another question. How many people who own a computer do you know who have *never* experienced a hard drive crash?

That's a lot of data to back up. I am quite anal about it...I keep an external drive with anything of any importance backed up...my documents going back a decade, all digital photos including 'rejects'...a few hundred gig of video - sometimes even after I've burned a DVD or Blu-Ray.
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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by sciolist » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:45 pm

mauka wrote:We already have digital magazine for Arri SR3 (http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm- ... gazine.php), but super 8 cameras are usually quite cheap, so there's not much point in digital super 8 cassette.
As I've explained, my investment in cameras, lenses, and accessories for Super 8 isn't insignificant. Most if not all of this equipment will have to be retired if the format becomes obsolete, so a digital Super 8 cassette would be very attractive from my perspective. Even if Super 8 cassette film remains available and affordable for many years to come, a digital Super 8 cassette would be a useful tool in my view, but it's clear from the responses I've received here that no one else believes this idea has any merit at all.

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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by mauka » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:41 pm

sciolist wrote:
mauka wrote:We already have digital magazine for Arri SR3 (http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm- ... gazine.php), but super 8 cameras are usually quite cheap, so there's not much point in digital super 8 cassette.
As I've explained, my investment in cameras, lenses, and accessories for Super 8 isn't insignificant. Most if not all of this equipment will have to be retired if the format becomes obsolete, so a digital Super 8 cassette would be very attractive from my perspective. Even if Super 8 cassette film remains available and affordable for many years to come, a digital Super 8 cassette would be a useful tool in my view, but it's clear from the responses I've received here that no one else believes this idea has any merit at all.

I'd like that too - RED one inside of a super 8 camera. It would be great, but I meant more like that it's not very good business idea. I'm sure that eventually some geek will build one prototype, but it would be so costly to manufacture those digital cassettes (with quality that could compete with camcorders) that no one would buy those.

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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by Muckymuck » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:47 pm

The trouble is that HD video is becoming harder and harder to distinguish from film.

In the amateur market consider the comparasons in terms of image quality - video has a certain "look" - fluid, sterile, electronic-looking and usually low contrast. Film is generally contrastier, less fluid due to the frame rate and has a more "organic" quality to it.

I recently picked up a cheap Agfaphoto "Made in China" HD camcorder which takes SD cards and was amazed at how "filmlike" the images were - contrastier and less fluid. Having played with a few Canon HD models, in certain modes it is scarily indistinguishable from 16mm.

I will continue to use Super 8 for as long as it's available, but whereas once the only way to create the film-look was to use film, this is now (for the small screen, at least) no longer the case.

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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by reflex » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:19 pm

Angus wrote:Hmm...that's what they said when I created loads of 256 colour gif files on my Atari ST back in the period 1989-1992.
Photoshop will open a 256 colour GIF. Or google Atari Image Viewer for a program that handles NEO, PI1, PI2, PI3, SPU, PC1 files.
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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by Will2 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:35 pm

The digital capture is getting better and better but every colorist I know would take film over a 5D or RED ONE and day. That will probably change over the next few years but 35mm film will still be the easiest & quickest way to great looking HD video.

"WHAT?? EASIEST?? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? DIGITAL IS WAY EASIER!"

For hobbyists, wedding videographers and corporate material digital is probably easier and certainly more practical now, but for broadcast and feature film people that concentrate on the best images and best color possible, film gives much more flexibility than the RED ONE or a 5D. They spend hours/days with colorists getting the most out of their shots. I've sat in on these sessions and seen how frustrated filmmakers can be with lighting & exposure decisions/compromises they HAD to make during a shoot that locked them into something in post... whereas film gave them much more flexibility. For these filmmakers digital takes just as long or longer to setup & light properly.

But in the end of course digital capture will continue to grow and the sensors will get better and eventually 35mm and certainly 16mm will disappear from commercial productions. So shoot as much as you can as often as you can on film because you'll be really happy you did 15 years from now when the next Super Duper HD comes out and you're future-safe.

My gut says they'll be film still manufactured for many years to come, even the smaller gauges, although it may become more expensive.

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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by super8man » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:25 am

Angus, are your lenses on the Praktica screwmount (M42)? If so, get a converter and hook them up to your Nikon D50 - make sure the one you get has an internal element for infinity focusing. I bought mine from some dude in China for like $17.
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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by Patrick » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:28 am

super8man wrote:Angus, are your lenses on the Praktica screwmount (M42)? If so, get a converter and hook them up to your Nikon D50 - make sure the one you get has an internal element for infinity focusing. I bought mine from some dude in China for like $17.
Wow that is cheap. I was once speaking on the phone with some guy who was an authorised repairer and parts distributor for Beaulieu about getting a lens adapter. This was a few years ago and he was trying to convince me to purchase an adapter with a fairly hefty price tag (was over $100, maybe even $200 - I can't recall exactly.) He was saying that the price reflected the quality of the precision involved in the fit and distance etc. Does that sound like a load of baloney? This was for mounting a Canon FD lens (still 35mm format) to C mount. And I'm not talking about a custom made adapter either.

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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by Angus » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:08 pm

reflex wrote:
Angus wrote:Hmm...that's what they said when I created loads of 256 colour gif files on my Atari ST back in the period 1989-1992.
Photoshop will open a 256 colour GIF. Or google Atari Image Viewer for a program that handles NEO, PI1, PI2, PI3, SPU, PC1 files.

Photoshop is not cheap or shareware/freeware.
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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by Angus » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:13 pm

super8man wrote:Angus, are your lenses on the Praktica screwmount (M42)? If so, get a converter and hook them up to your Nikon D50 - make sure the one you get has an internal element for infinity focusing. I bought mine from some dude in China for like $17.
Mostly I am talking about the PB bayonet mount....I've a boat load of high quality Sigma and Carl Zeiss lenses with the PB mount. I was one of the few who went for the Praktica BX20S. I do have a few PK mount lenses including a Paragon 500mm which always attracts attention...and a M42 to PB adaptor.

Is there a PB adaptor for the D50? Would also come in handy for the F601 and the wife's F50.

Thinking of dudes in China...my dad went out there on business in 1985 and managed to drop his M42 mount zoom lens (he had a Praktica MTL5 back then). It was bicycled to some elderly Chinese watchmaker 50 miles away who repaired it...bicycled back...all for US$5. Amazing. And the lens works to this day.
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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by MovieStuff » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:15 am

Angus wrote:
reflex wrote:
Angus wrote:Hmm...that's what they said when I created loads of 256 colour gif files on my Atari ST back in the period 1989-1992.
Photoshop will open a 256 colour GIF. Or google Atari Image Viewer for a program that handles NEO, PI1, PI2, PI3, SPU, PC1 files.

Photoshop is not cheap or shareware/freeware.
Try this:

http://www.getpaint.net/

Roger

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Re: Is DSLR the terminator for super 8 and 16mm?

Post by super8man » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:36 am

Another part missing in your calculations:
In 3-5 years the Olympus' batteries will be dead. And it uses an "Olympus only"-rechargeable battery that now costs 5-15 EUR, but will then cost 99EUR (if it's still available at all). Not to mention that in 3-5 years you will not be able to connect your camera to a new computer as USB-ports and will be replaced by a "Hyperfirewire-eSATA-4.0"-connector (or something similar). And SD/SDHC will not be supported any more as well either. Even if you find a card-reader that still supports SD/SDHC, you might have problems with the FAT-format used by the Olympus. And of course in 3-5 years you will not be able to buy a new SD/SDHC-card any more (even though your card will have reached its maximum number of write-accesses by then).
In other words: You can expect to have to by a new camera in 3-5 years for another 400-500 EUR.

Jörg
Here's the issue I have with this viewpoint. It allows for no future developments of technology. Think back to 1959 (or whenever) and screwmount lenses were all the rage. Do you really think people thought AT THAT TIME that those lenses could be mounted to a brand new Nikon DSLR (or Canon)? Nope. Not one thought of that.

Fast forward to today. We can still buy refurbished/new batteries for almost any digital camera there is all on ebay. Heck, I even wrote about how to make battery packs for a Beaulieu 2008. And to the layman, they would say "Nope, that camera is garbage - the battery is no longer sold in stores).

As far as cameras are concerned, we seem to be of mixed minds here. At one point, everyone wants to keep super 8 going. At the other point, everyone is getting a new camera for xmas, etc. For no other reason than they can. So, why the need to require people get new cameras in 3-5 years? Guess what, they will buy a new camera in 6months to a year if for no other reason than they WANT to. Not because they have to. Heck, if we HAD to buy new cameras, super 8 would have died a natural death in 1980.

The point is, you can't forecast the future while holding all potential technology advancements stationary.

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