Telecine 5 blade projectors

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gene_can_sing
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Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by gene_can_sing » Thu May 03, 2007 9:09 am

I've been curious as to how to do DIY telecine, more just to check out non-crucial stuff that I shoot for practice. Obviously, more important projects will get a real telecine.

But.....

What are these Telecine 5 Blade projectors that I see on Ebay all the time?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ELMO-16mm-TELECINE- ... dZViewItem

Can you somehow attach a video camera to it and get a decent telecine at home without spending 300 dollars an hours at a post house?

Can you also just use them as a projector if anything?

Thanks

Mitch Perkins
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by Mitch Perkins » Thu May 03, 2007 6:03 pm

gene_can_sing wrote:I've been curious as to how to do DIY telecine, more just to check out non-crucial stuff that I shoot for practice.
From another thread -

"40W 'fridge bulb, and I mean straight from our refrigerator. Filtered to offset excessive warmth. A/C dimmer cut in to power cord.

With the right amount of diffusion, "zebra" appears in VX2000 LCD across the monitor evenly - no hotspot. I could prove it by posting a pic, but likely won't. ~:?)

5.5 inches of black cloth camera tape wound around 18fps section of belt spindle ups the speed to 20fps. Recommend reverse running at 24fps only - it can unwind the tape, especially after a long, hot run.

Just in case anyone wants to put one on a chain for themselves."

If you just want to check your stuff out, get an old B&H on the cheap, and do the above. You can pm me for more detail, or ask here to spread the knowledge.

Footage transfered @ 20fps can be sped up 117% on NLE to get 24fps.

[edit] Sorry, bad wording - the footage is sped up 17% - one types "117" in the speed selection box.

Mitch

clivetobin
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by clivetobin » Fri May 04, 2007 5:43 am

gene_can_sing wrote:...
What are these Telecine 5 Blade projectors that I see on Ebay all the time?...
These are for the most part a partial telecine conversion that still requires you to project on to a screen, so you get the keystoning effect (from the projector and camera lenses not able to be on axis) and showing the texture of the screen. Or into one of those nasty little groundglass and mirror boxes with center hot spot, dark corners and severe fixed grain. They lack the light source diffusion, and different focal length projection lens, needed to use with a proper traditional film chain setup.

A 5 blade shutter is sort of correct for 23.976 FPS telecine to NTSC. As near as I can tell, the Ebay projectors are not speed controlled with the sort of precision that is needed for this use. An expensive 3600 RPM synchronous motor with timing belt & timing pulley drive in 12:30 ratio will give a 24 FPS speed that is line referenced and close enough. However there is no evidence that any such different motor or timing belt arrangement has actually been installed in any of these $399-$499 (worth $100-$300) projectors. So the speed is only approximate and will probably be off by a few percent one way or the other, giving some flicker or pulsation, the amount of error depending on line voltage, size of the reels, how long the grease has been warming up, etc.

The 5 blade shutter is an El Cheapo way anyway of doing telecine. Better systems use the equivalent of a 2-1/2 blade shutter and film advance mechanism that is synchronized to the video vertical sync (instead of to the AC line frequency) to prevent blended film frames. This gives the well known 2-3 pulldown, where one frame of film goes to two video fields and the next goes to 3 video fields, and so on. (Lather, rinse, repeat...)

Shameless plug: As used in the Tobin Video Transfer telecine machines.

Also I would like to pound a stake into the heart of the old walking-undead myth about a 5 bladed shutter being a universal panacea for video transfer. A 5 blade shutter is only useful for film that is being transferred to NTSC video at 12 or 24 FPS. Or to PAL video at 10 or 20 FPS. For other speeds you need different shuttering as has been explained previously.

And not every projector (35mm for instance) can be just fitted with a 5-bladed shutter as the speed of pulldown may not be sufficient to prevent travel ghost, unless using a special telecine or perhaps drive-in theater Geneva intermittent.

Yes, these projectors can still be used for regular projection. However because of the small shutter openings only a fraction of the normal light will be evident on the screen.

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Rollef
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Post by Rollef » Fri May 04, 2007 8:06 am

gene_can_sing, if you are looking into the DIY telecine, forget the setup where you project on a screen with a mirror and film the back of the screen. It will be crap.

For a quick set up just use the paper on-a-wall method. mutch better.
If you want to barry you head into this DIY telecine there are tons of threads about it for you to read about.

Also don't forget the brilliant guide on onsuper8.org on how to build you own.


http://filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/v ... 95661ea4f6
http://filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/v ... 95661ea4f6
http://filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/v ... 95661ea4f6
http://filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/v ... 95661ea4f6
http://filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/v ... 95661ea4f6

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Rick Palidwor
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by Rick Palidwor » Sat May 05, 2007 3:08 am

gene_can_sing wrote:I've been curious as to how to do DIY telecine, more just to check out non-crucial stuff that I shoot for practice. Obviously, more important projects will get a real telecine.

But.....

What are these Telecine 5 Blade projectors that I see on Ebay all the time?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ELMO-16mm-TELECINE- ... dZViewItem

Can you somehow attach a video camera to it and get a decent telecine at home without spending 300 dollars an hours at a post house?

Can you also just use them as a projector if anything?

Thanks
The simple short answer to your question (and then the techies can chastisse me on some or another point) is that a 5-bladed shutter is required for flicker-free transfer of 24fps to video (NTSC). A three-bladed shutter is used for 18 fps (actually ramped to 20 fps).

It is strictly a telecine issue. Both shutter-blades can be used for simple projection (with no video in the chain).

Rick

kiwihans
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by kiwihans » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:31 pm

Hi I am in New Zealand - PAL tv country. I bought a Elmo 16 - CL telecine unit from a US seller just recently (he regularly sells these on Ebay).
Well, the Elmo came equiped with a 5 blade shutter. My 16mm movie film has flickering when running.
I also own an Eiki 16mm projector. The Eiki only has a 2 blade shutter. When the Eiki is used, there is no flickering, the images are rock steady.
Of course PAL TV runs at 25fps, 16 mm movie film runs at 24 fps so there is only a small difference.
Should I contact the seller in the US and ask for the original blade shutter to be sent? Any idea how many blades the Elmo would have had?

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beamascope
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by beamascope » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:30 pm

Rick Palidwor wrote:
gene_can_sing wrote:I've been curious as to how to do DIY telecine, more just to check out non-crucial stuff that I shoot for practice. Obviously, more important projects will get a real telecine.

But.....

What are these Telecine 5 Blade projectors that I see on Ebay all the time?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ELMO-16mm-TELECINE- ... dZViewItem

Can you somehow attach a video camera to it and get a decent telecine at home without spending 300 dollars an hours at a post house?

Can you also just use them as a projector if anything?

Thanks
The simple short answer to your question (and then the techies can chastisse me on some or another point) is that a 5-bladed shutter is required for flicker-free transfer of 24fps to video (NTSC). A three-bladed shutter is used for 18 fps (actually ramped to 20 fps).

It is strictly a telecine issue. Both shutter-blades can be used for simple projection (with no video in the chain).

Rick

I'm with Rick. This would be a good projector for simply turning test footage into digital which is what I think you want.

woods01
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by woods01 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:15 pm

kiwihans wrote:Should I contact the seller in the US and ask for the original blade shutter to be sent? Any idea how many blades the Elmo would have had?
Well that Elmo you bought is supposed to come with a 5 blade shutter. If your Eiki wasn't giving you flicker then why did you buy the Elmo?

kiwihans
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by kiwihans » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:12 am

woods01 wrote:
kiwihans wrote:Should I contact the seller in the US and ask for the original blade shutter to be sent? Any idea how many blades the Elmo would have had?
Well that Elmo you bought is supposed to come with a 5 blade shutter. If your Eiki wasn't giving you flicker then why did you buy the Elmo?
A very good question! I am in the movie to video transfer business. You are correct, the Elmo is supposed to come with a 5 blade shutter. I bought the Elmo because it is set up as a Telecine machine, with cold light LED etc. I think it is becoming apparent that this Elmo is really meant for the US market, therefore it needs a 5 blade shutter to correct for NTSC at 29.9 fps.
This appears not to be true for PAL which runs at 25 fps. I believe that in this situation, the 5 blade shutter actually causes flickering, whereas a 2 blade shutter does not. I wish I had known this at the time of purchase and I would have asked to leave the 2 blade shutter in.
BTW. The Eiki is not so easy to use for Telecine work. The light source is quite hot - unlike the Elmo cold light. The Eiki breaks the movie at times, the Elmo with its channel loading is preferable and runs more smoothly. There is no keystoning effect (parts of the image out of focus) etc.etc.

bakanosaru
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by bakanosaru » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:21 pm

Here's an old quote from Roger that explains the blades vs camera fps:
Okay, here is how it works:

A three bladed shutter means that the film is "blinking" three times per frame. NTSC scans at about 60 fields per second. 3 will divide into 60 twenty times, which is why the flicker goes away at about 20 fps with a three bladed shutter and the camera set to 1/60th of a second on NTSC. So, if you are shooting PAL with your camera set to 1/50th of a second, then you have 50 fields per second going by. What would be the number of shutter blades needed to divide into 50 equally if projecting at 25fps?
PAL CAMCORDERS FOR FILM TRANSFER

kiwihans
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Re: Telecine 5 blade projectors

Post by kiwihans » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:49 pm

bakanosaru wrote:Here's an old quote from Roger that explains the blades vs camera fps:
Okay, here is how it works:

A three bladed shutter means that the film is "blinking" three times per frame. NTSC scans at about 60 fields per second. 3 will divide into 60 twenty times, which is why the flicker goes away at about 20 fps with a three bladed shutter and the camera set to 1/60th of a second on NTSC. So, if you are shooting PAL with your camera set to 1/50th of a second, then you have 50 fields per second going by. What would be the number of shutter blades needed to divide into 50 equally if projecting at 25fps?
PAL CAMCORDERS FOR FILM TRANSFER
Many thanks for your advice. It makes good sense then to get the 2 blade shutter. This is obviously the reason why my other projector (the Eiki) with only 2 blades does not exhibit flicker on PAL TV. I have emailed the supplier with a request that he send me the original shutter for the Elmo (which appears to have been a 2 blade job).

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