as much as i love super 8, what about 16mm?

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Will2
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Post by Will2 » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:57 am

While its nice that Single 8 will have life support for a few more years, its still an 8mm format. The incredible hassle and wait associate with processing alone makes it something to avoid unless you already have a Single-8 camera. If you're already shooting Super 8 and regular 8, the next step for you would be 16mm.

Then you'll have the full range of Fuji stocks and Kodak stocks to choose from and it gives you many more options. Double-X negative is a really cool b&w stock (used on the opening of the new James Bond film)... if you project you'll love Ektachrome 100D. You won't believe how sharp and vibrant Vision2 50D is in 16mm. For all of these reasons and the great resources that 16mm has across the globe, I'd pick up an inexpensive 16mm camera and try it.

Remember, 16mm was THE home movie format for many years in the 40's and 50's.. at least for movie stars and people with a little money.

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Post by audadvnc » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:37 am

But now the cell phone is the preferred home movie format, at least with amateur pornographers and Iraqi executioners. Ya gotta stay current, otherwise what's the point? :P

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Post by Patrick » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:18 am

Considering whether 16mm is a format worth getting into also depends on who you talk to. I was once having a conversation in an online photography chat room with a newcomer to the room about my Krasnogorsk 3, which he was totally unfamiliar with, and I was saying that it's a really cheap way to get into 16mm. He replied that a handycam would be better.
Last edited by Patrick on Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Evan Kubota » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:36 am

16mm is obviously worth considering.. the quality can be great with a little thought and preparation.

Russian cameras are like anything else - you need to exercise a little care and they can be great. My Kinor has never had issues (other than blowing a fuse - the battery cable had a short that I caused) that weren't repairable.

I took a Kiev 16U to HK and just got the footage back. The 50D came out very well even though I forgot my light meter and had to guess at exposure. The 500T must have been loaded slightly wrong. Perhaps the loops were too small or the gate was incorrectly seated (the footage is jumpy and has a shutterless effect that looks weird).

Scoopics are fun as well. A non-reflex Bolex with good primes will give you the best image quality for the money, though.

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Post by marc » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:22 am

Sometimes I wonder if 16mm is the better option. You can get short ends of 16mm cheaper and for the same running time than what they are asking for the S8 carts. And your choice of stocks is almost unlimited. I guess what keeps people coming back to S8 is it's convenience and the fact that the cameras have a great range of automated features. Maybe it is psychological. I think a lot of people have the sense that 16mm is in that "professional twilight Zone". And although there are several members on this forum that shoot professionally, I would guess that there are a great majority that do not! I sometimes wonder if I just bite the bullet and lay out a hunk of cash for a good professional 16mm with a lot of automated features, that I might end up saving in the long run. That might be a good incentive for a lot of people to sell all of their Super 8 equipment and put the cash towards 16mm. The downside that still remains is the size and weight of the 16mm cameras.
WHY DO YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS GOING THROUGH TSA SECURITY IN THE AIRPORT BUT ANYONE CAN CROSS THE BOARDER BETWEEN THE U.S. AND MEXICO WITH NO CHALLENGES WHATSOEVER? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

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Post by wado1942 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:36 am

a good professional 16mm with a lot of automated features
Sorry dude but it doesn't really exist. There's a reason pro cameras are manually operated....because professionals DO NOT USE AUTO in the film industry. If you want the quality of profesional film making, you need to set up shots the way pros do. You'll get far better results from a super-8 camera in manual mode using a proper light meter to set exposure than you will using a 16mm camera with auto functions. Otherwise, all you'll get is lower grain and a little sharper image. Almost all the success of pro shoots comes from knowing the limits of the film stock and using a light meter to make the scene fall into those limits.

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Post by marc » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:42 am

wado1942 wrote:
a good professional 16mm with a lot of automated features
Sorry dude but it doesn't really exist. There's a reason pro cameras are manually operated....because professionals DO NOT USE AUTO in the film industry. If you want the quality of profesional film making, you need to set up shots the way pros do. You'll get far better results from a super-8 camera in manual mode using a proper light meter to set exposure than you will using a 16mm camera with auto functions. Otherwise, all you'll get is lower grain and a little sharper image. Almost all the success of pro shoots comes from knowing the limits of the film stock and using a light meter to make the scene fall into those limits.
I realize that but there are some newer cameras out there that have added some automated features. Since most 16 mm cameras that are in the price range of the amateur are the older manually set types on e bay, that is most likely what they will end up with. Lately there have been some companies that have produced modern 16mm cameras that have automated features. Of course they are in the $5000-$36000 range. The scoopic is actually one of the non modern 16mm cameras that had a lot of automated features and a lot of new commers gravitate towards those.
WHY DO YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS GOING THROUGH TSA SECURITY IN THE AIRPORT BUT ANYONE CAN CROSS THE BOARDER BETWEEN THE U.S. AND MEXICO WITH NO CHALLENGES WHATSOEVER? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

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Post by marc » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:43 am

Even when you set the iris manually, it is alway a great tool to have the TTL to use as a spot meter in determining the F stop!
WHY DO YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS GOING THROUGH TSA SECURITY IN THE AIRPORT BUT ANYONE CAN CROSS THE BOARDER BETWEEN THE U.S. AND MEXICO WITH NO CHALLENGES WHATSOEVER? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

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Post by BigBeaner » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:51 am

too small or the gate was incorrectly seated (the footage is jumpy and has a shutterless effect that looks weird
Ya you lost your loop, it's happened to me. How did it look anyways?

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Post by mattias » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:44 pm

wado1942 wrote:
a good professional 16mm with a lot of automated features
Sorry dude but it doesn't really exist.
what about the a-minima? what are some of the festures that super 8 cameras have? auto exposure is available in many 16mm cameras and most have at least a built in lightmeter. it's much harder to load 16mm cameras, i think that's the main difference. once you know how to though it's not difficult but you often need an extra pair of hands (the loader) to not lose time.

/matt

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Post by wado1942 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:39 pm

Well yes, there's SOME cameras out there with auto exposure but they aren't cheap. The A-minima is a great little camera but it's WAY out of a hobby price range unless you're rich. Besides, doesn't it only take 100' loads? Of course there's always the K-3. That has a built-in meter and you can get some great lenses for that camera. It's pretty acurate in its transport speed for the first 30 seconds or so of its wind. I wouldn't shoot a full role on a single wind that's for sure.

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Post by mattias » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:19 pm

wado1942 wrote:Well yes, there's SOME cameras out there with auto exposure but they aren't cheap. The A-minima is a great little camera but it's WAY out of a hobby price range unless you're rich. Besides, doesn't it only take 100' loads?
i didn't realize price was an issue. are any professional 16mm cameras affordable? a used sr1 perhaps. it also has ttl metering btw. ;-)

if you don't care about the word professional i guess a scoopic would fit the needs of a super 8 shooter? i haven't used one but it sure looks like a big super 8 camera.

the a-minima takes 200' a wound loads.

/matt

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Post by Will2 » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:18 pm

If you enjoy Super 8 for it's ease of use and the look of film, you'll love a Canon Scoopic.

Yes it is bigger, but the auto iris is great and loading is REALLY easy. It shines on outdoor shoots with slower stocks in the middle f-stop range; truely amazing footage

If you love reversal stocks the Ektachrome 100D is fine and reminds me of Super 8 just sharper and more detail. Projected it just shines.

If you are a professional that has time to set up shoots and proper lighting, then Super 8 isn't your thing anyway.

16mm = Worth a try even if you rent a camera for a weekend to see what you get.

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Post by sk360 » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:52 pm

A camera I have been seeing a drastic drop in price recently is the Arri S. You can pick up a whole package from anywhere between $1500 to $2000 and even a lot less. TTL Viewfinder, Pin Registration, they're pretty small as well ( without the 400' mag of course). It's the only camera ,other then the Bolex, that I would consider picking up at that price range.

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Post by marc » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:50 pm

sk360 wrote:A camera I have been seeing a drastic drop in price recently is the Arri S. You can pick up a whole package from anywhere between $1500 to $2000 and even a lot less. TTL Viewfinder, Pin Registration, they're pretty small as well ( without the 400' mag of course). It's the only camera ,other then the Bolex, that I would consider picking up at that price range.
Does it only take double perf film or both single and double?

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