B&W - Negative or Reversal?

Post by **beatnik326** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:16 pm

Hi all,

I've been reading this forum for a couple months now, and it's been a great source of knowledge. I've used the search function plenty, but I'd still like to present a question in a new topic to get everone's input.

Up until now, I've only shot K40. I have the Pro8mm Classic camera (refurbed Beaulieu 4008) and use the manual 8-64mm lens that came with it. I've been quite happy with the results.

But I'm currently in pre-production on a short Super 8 film I'm going to shoot this summer, hopefully early June, in my hometown of Ames, Iowa. It will be about a 10-12 minute, b&w, silent (with an original score) short. I've seen some beautiful S8 b&w images, and it's the perfect aesthetic for the story I'm telling, plus well-suited for a bit of a throwback to the silent era.

However, I'm not sure what film stock to use for the project. I've read plenty on these boards in relation to b&w in favor of both the newer negative stocks (even bleeding out color in post) and Kodak's Tri-x and Plus-x reversal offerings.

I want it to be apparent it was shot on S8 (meaning, I'm not trying to "match" the quality of 16mm or anything) but I also want to capture the best images possible while retaining the grainy organic quality of S8. Make sense?

As for lighting, I certainly don't want flat lighting, but I'm not going for high contrast either. I suppose I'm leaning toward naturalistic lighting with a bit of stylized stuff here and there.

I will have the film processed and transfered to video for editing in FCP. The plans is to submit to festivals on DVD.

So what do you all recommend? Please refer me to stills or clips from b&w work where possible. Questions, just ask. I'm still pretty new to S8, but I'll do my best to clarify.

Post by **steve hyde** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:11 am

Hi Andy,

I'm relatively new to Super 8 myself so hopefully others will chime in; however, I have shot about 20 carts over the past several months and did experiment with tri x reversal. I liked the look but I had some problems with getting a jittery image. I later discovered, on this forum, that others were having similar problems and that Kodak had acknowledged that there was a problem with "jittery carts" (this last bit isl second hand info) you can probably search the archives for that.

I would love to get my hands on black and white negative stock for S8 so that I could home process, but I haven't seen any circulating.... I wonder if Pro 8mm packages any? I don't know....

I have been shooting Kodak 7217 and 7218, which are the new "VISON2" emulsions and I have plans to run a few tests at transfer time, one of which is going to be going to grey scale so that I can compare the difference between taking out color in post or doing it at transfer time. I need to ask the colorist what to do because I'm not sure what the best practice is these days. I will say that I've heard cinematagraphers bemoan 16mm B&W negative stocks, complaining that the emulsions are too thin and that color negatives are better overall.. (again, more second hand info)....

hope this helps.... Iowa will be a cool place to shoot...

have fun!!

Steve

Post by **Dusty** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:12 am

steve hyde wrote:I would love to get my hands on black and white negative stock for S8 so that I could home process

You can cross-process Plus- and Tri-X as negative, you know.

Post by **Actor** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:33 am

Dusty wrote:
steve hyde wrote:I would love to get my hands on black and white negative stock for S8 so that I could home process
You can cross-process Plus- and Tri-X as negative, you know.

But be aware that both films are one stop slower when processed as negative.

Post by **mathis** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:16 pm

I recently tried out how K40 looks on video as b/w. And I really liked the look. Maybe you should try it, too. It could save you lots of money, as it will for me.

Post by **steve hyde** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:57 am

....Hmmm. This is interesting. Where can I learn more about cross process for plus X.... What kind of spool do you use? What kind of tank? What kind of chemestry?? I'd like to try this. :idea:

Thanks,

Steve

Post by **downix** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:13 am

I have processed Plus-X as negative to good effect, using standard D-76 chemistry in my hand-tank.

Post by **Actor** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:08 am

steve hyde wrote:....Hmmm. This is interesting. Where can I learn more about cross process for plus X.... What kind of spool do you use? What kind of tank? What kind of chemestry?? I'd like to try this. :idea:

Thanks,

Steve

Some years ago I e-mailed Kodak and they gave me instructions. I never got around to trying it.

If memory serves you rate the film at half the speed (in daylight Plus-X would be ASA 50 instead of ASA 100) and then proceed as though it were B&W still film. Lots fewer steps: develop, stop, wash, fix, wash, dry, done!

Instead of rating the film slower I suppose you could push it one stop.

In their e-mail Kodak advised that I use 7222 instead of Tri-X, overlooking the fact that 7222 is not available in S8.

Post by **steve hyde** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:11 pm

Cross process means processing reversal for negative right? So that means if I cross process I will end up with a negative image not a positive right?

Steve

Post by **christoph** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:47 pm

steve hyde wrote:Cross process means processing reversal for negative right? So that means if I cross process I will end up with a negative image not a positive right?

you probably can use the term cross process for everything that you don't develop in it's proper chemistry... even B/W in C-41 (you'll get a blank film, but hey, anything for a weird life).

the most common use for it is if you process slide films (which are meant to be E-6) in C-41.. so to avoid confusion, i usually specify *which* process i'm talking about. like: "i'd like to develop this b/w reversal film as b/w negative." or: "can you cross process this C-41 color negative film in E-6 chemistry?"

but yes, nearly every b/w reversal film can be processed as negative (foma being the only exception that i'm aware of) and every negative film can be processed as positive (some will have high base fog and other problems though).

++ christoph ++

Post by **beatnik326** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:21 pm

Thanks to everyone for their feedback.

I guess I'm leaning toward sticking with Tri-x/Plus-x. Anyone care to argue I should consider otherwise and go with a negative stock?

The film is set to be in the 10-12 minute range. My original idea was to purchase a package deal from Pro8mm. Their packages are listed here:
http://www.pro8mm.com/us/8pack.htm

The "short film" package is 24 rolls with processing and transfer to DV for $1298. I thought it'd be nice to have an all-in-one package. But I've read a lot of less-than-stellar stuff about Pro8mm on this forum. Both about the quality of their work and the high cost.

But when I add up the numbers, they don't seem expensive at all.

For instance, say I bought 24 rolls direct from Kodak, had it processed at Forde and transferred to DV by Flying Spot:

Reversal direct from Kodak:
24 rolls = Apprx. $255

Forde processing ($12.50/roll)
24 rolls = $300

Flying Spot transfer: $300/hour scene-to-scene
24 rolls = 3hrs = $900

Total: $1455

Am I missing something with these numbers? Sorry if it's something simple. All the options available for Super 8 filmmaking are great, but it can also make it a bit daunting for us newer to the format.

Again, my goal here is to shoot a b&w S8 short about 10-12 mins. long. I figured the 24 rolls would allow me plenty of coverage. I want it transferred to DV for editing in Final Cut Pro with the final format being DVD.

Whose services should I be looking at for the best balance of quality work and good pricing?

I really appreciate your input.

Post by **mattias** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:54 pm

that's with a 34% discount. you can negotiate similar discounts with the other's and get the same thing for a little less but more importantly you'll probably get better results.

/matt

Post by **ccortez** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:54 pm

christoph wrote:every negative film can be processed as positive

huh-WHA? is this just technically true, or is it practically true? do I make sense?

sorry, that statement just blew my mind. 8O

you guys are always giving me more goofy shit to try! :lol:

c.

Post by **mattias** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:04 pm

it's technically true, but in reality most negative stocks have an orange base, so a complete reversal isn't possible.

/matt

Post by **monobath** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:16 pm

Color negative film has an orange base, mattias. The subject here is b&w film, which either has a clear or light grey base.

It's best to process a film with the process it was intended for, but for b&w film, you can certainly process reversal film as negative or negative film as positive.

dr5 Chrome is a proprietary commercial process invented by David Wood for making transparencies from negative film. The results shown on his website are stunning. He has scaled back his cine film offerings due to lack of interest, but he can process normal reversal or negative b&w S8 film to his unique looking reversal result. I don't know if he processes reversal film to negative.

This Kodak technical data sheet PDF document for Kodak Plus-X Reversal Film 7265 has a little bit of information on processing 7265 to a negative. Kodak recommends D-96, but you can use any conventional negative developer, stop, and fix.