Hi everybody-
I'm having kind of a difficult situation lately, and it's about editing. You see, I'm trying to decide if I want to splice my film by hand (which is fun and has a cool nostolgia factor to it), or if I should edit on video (which can be "cleaner," and more flexible but more expensive.) I think it'd be cool to build my own editing bench. It could have several spools and rewinds made from parts of cheap viewers I've bought at thrift stores. But I wonder if the splices are going to be very visible when I project the film. I've tried the Kodak Presstapes with my Kal-Art splicer with very unsatisfactory results. (I hope the Kodak splicer works better with it's own tapes!) If you guys edit in film, what kind of splicers and splice tapes do you use? I've seen those Ciro Guillotine splicers go for $60-$80 on ebay-- Are they worth the money?
Thanks so much everyone!
Arnie.
How do you edit?
Moderator: Andreas Wideroe
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Guest
I use two different splicers when I'm editing super 8mm films. For my "first cut" I use the CIR (or CIRO) splicer. It makes good splices, but they can still be visible unless you have been very careful. The splices (rolls of unperforated tape) are reasonably cheap.
For my "final edit", I use the Würker splicer. With a little care these are invisible, no gap at all. I always use the 2 perf. tape, but you can also have tape covering 4 perf.
In my opinion the Würker is the best splicer (I make thousands of S8mm splices a year), the tape is readily available, but is a little more expensive than the CIR tape.
CIR splicers can also be bought brand new, for a price not too much higher than the ones you mention for second-hand models.
Second-hand models might be very worn, specially the punchers. Spare parts can be bought, but with the prices you mention, you are better off buying a new one.
Second-hand Würkers are usually in very good condition.
Good luck.
For my "final edit", I use the Würker splicer. With a little care these are invisible, no gap at all. I always use the 2 perf. tape, but you can also have tape covering 4 perf.
In my opinion the Würker is the best splicer (I make thousands of S8mm splices a year), the tape is readily available, but is a little more expensive than the CIR tape.
CIR splicers can also be bought brand new, for a price not too much higher than the ones you mention for second-hand models.
Second-hand models might be very worn, specially the punchers. Spare parts can be bought, but with the prices you mention, you are better off buying a new one.
Second-hand Würkers are usually in very good condition.
Good luck.
I use two different splicers when I'm editing super 8mm films. For my "first cut" I use the CIR (or CIRO) splicer. It makes good splices, but they can still be visible unless you have been very careful. The splices (rolls of unperforated tape) are reasonably cheap.
For my "final edit", I use the Würker splicer. With a little care these are invisible, no gap at all. I always use the 2 perf. tape, but you can also have tape covering 4 perf.
In my opinion the Würker is the best splicer (I make thousands of S8mm splices a year), the tape is readily available, but is a little more expensive than the CIR tape.
CIR splicers can also be bought brand new, for a price not too much higher than the ones you mention for second-hand models.
Second-hand models might be very worn, specially the punchers. Spare parts can be bought, but with the prices you mention, you are better off buying a new one.
Second-hand Würkers are usually in very good condition.
Good luck.
For my "final edit", I use the Würker splicer. With a little care these are invisible, no gap at all. I always use the 2 perf. tape, but you can also have tape covering 4 perf.
In my opinion the Würker is the best splicer (I make thousands of S8mm splices a year), the tape is readily available, but is a little more expensive than the CIR tape.
CIR splicers can also be bought brand new, for a price not too much higher than the ones you mention for second-hand models.
Second-hand models might be very worn, specially the punchers. Spare parts can be bought, but with the prices you mention, you are better off buying a new one.
Second-hand Würkers are usually in very good condition.
Good luck.
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David M. Leugers
- Posts: 1632
- Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 12:42 am
- Contact:
S8mm splicers
Arnie
I agree that the best splicer out there for projecting an edited S-8mm
film is the Wurker splicer. I was truely amazed that it could produce
splices that are invisible when properly done. I always use a trusty cement
splicer to put smaller 50ft reels together onto larger reels (400ft) to view or
clean and lube prior to editing. Cement is an ultra cheap way of splicing and it is incredibly strong and not subject to losening from cleaning fluid. I
also cement splice the leaders onto a reel of film even if the film is edited using tape splices. If I am going to edit a film using the computer, then I only cement splice the reels together and take care of all cutting with the computer. I prefer projecting real film onto a big screen, but for some projects I must use the computer usually because of different formats of film (I shoot R-8mm, S-8mm and 16mm) or because of cost or expediency. I have owned and used just about every tape splicer out there and none of them met my demands for invisible splices except for the Wurker. I own both a R-8mm and S-8mm model. Buy one for yourself and enjoy the experience.
I agree that the best splicer out there for projecting an edited S-8mm
film is the Wurker splicer. I was truely amazed that it could produce
splices that are invisible when properly done. I always use a trusty cement
splicer to put smaller 50ft reels together onto larger reels (400ft) to view or
clean and lube prior to editing. Cement is an ultra cheap way of splicing and it is incredibly strong and not subject to losening from cleaning fluid. I
also cement splice the leaders onto a reel of film even if the film is edited using tape splices. If I am going to edit a film using the computer, then I only cement splice the reels together and take care of all cutting with the computer. I prefer projecting real film onto a big screen, but for some projects I must use the computer usually because of different formats of film (I shoot R-8mm, S-8mm and 16mm) or because of cost or expediency. I have owned and used just about every tape splicer out there and none of them met my demands for invisible splices except for the Wurker. I own both a R-8mm and S-8mm model. Buy one for yourself and enjoy the experience.
The best splicer still in production is without any doubt the Haman system. But it´s very costy. It scratches both film ends with a sharp knife in only one step (you move a handle). Then you take out both film ends and put them together in an extra press, with Kodak prof cement. No dust, no grinding, no increase in thickness, splices not visible at all.
A low cost version of this splicer had been the Zeiss Icon Moviepress, splicer and press in only one device together, but a little bit more tricky and not that high quality.
Splices as good as the first, but with more effort in handling, produces the Bolex splicer for S and Reg 8. It has no cutter, you must grind both film ends with sliding grinders. I am using this kind of splicer and the results are invisible. No increase in thickness. One minute waiting time after pressing.
Tape splicers are good for pre-editing and any quickies you might do from time to time. Here, the very best it the Würker with tape roller. But any tape splicers are critical with the increase in thickness, during cleanig, striping, with age etc. Cement splices is a kind of chemical process, which joins the material of the film together again, it´s not like glueing.
For computer editing you should be aware, that you can edit your copy of your footage, but your footage keeps at it is. To get a projectable, real film, the nle must be organized in a way, that the result can be repeated with the original footage. THis works fine, when transfering the working copy with overlayed frame numbers.
Pedro
A low cost version of this splicer had been the Zeiss Icon Moviepress, splicer and press in only one device together, but a little bit more tricky and not that high quality.
Splices as good as the first, but with more effort in handling, produces the Bolex splicer for S and Reg 8. It has no cutter, you must grind both film ends with sliding grinders. I am using this kind of splicer and the results are invisible. No increase in thickness. One minute waiting time after pressing.
Tape splicers are good for pre-editing and any quickies you might do from time to time. Here, the very best it the Würker with tape roller. But any tape splicers are critical with the increase in thickness, during cleanig, striping, with age etc. Cement splices is a kind of chemical process, which joins the material of the film together again, it´s not like glueing.
For computer editing you should be aware, that you can edit your copy of your footage, but your footage keeps at it is. To get a projectable, real film, the nle must be organized in a way, that the result can be repeated with the original footage. THis works fine, when transfering the working copy with overlayed frame numbers.
Pedro
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mattias
- Posts: 8356
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 1:31 pm
- Location: Gubbängen, Stockholm, Sweden
- Contact:
i count frames with a ruler from the start of the roll or the take, the slate clap and/or some visual cue in the action. you can also mark certain frames (that you're not going to use) with a sharpie prior to video transfer. this is then easily matched to the time code if you're using pal and the wonderful 1:1 frame relationship. it only takes a minute or so to find the correct frame, which isn't much since i usually have less than 50 edits in a typical project...Pedro wrote:To get a projectable, real film, the nle must be organized in a way, that the result can be repeated with the original footage. THis works fine, when transfering the working copy with overlayed frame numbers.
/matt
hey Matt,
but how do you exactly resolve the problem to repeat a complex fine cut made on pc with your film? The fine cut requires to shorten scene lengths, to cut away any clapboards or marked frames, just the "clean" footage in the final order, ready for soundtracking.
Or do you just organize the singular scenes on PC, until you are happy with their order, leaving all editing marks? THen I can imagine that it works.
THe standard method I know, is to join all that 50 ft rolls on one roll, transfer it to video and capture the frame counter of the projector (or external counter) with a second video camera. Both images, the real one and the counter number, are then mixed together with a video mixer. Your working copy now is totally numbered and you can edit anything you want. Once beeing ready, you put your original reel into a viewer with frame counter and repeat all cuts, separating all scenes. The separated scenes you clip onto a long board in their final order and splice everything together in one run.
In parallel, you can use the work copy, that should be identical to the physical film, for making the sound track on pc. After finishing, you can transfer that soundtrack to the physical film´s sound stripe, when running the film thru a crystal controlled projector.
Pedro
but how do you exactly resolve the problem to repeat a complex fine cut made on pc with your film? The fine cut requires to shorten scene lengths, to cut away any clapboards or marked frames, just the "clean" footage in the final order, ready for soundtracking.
Or do you just organize the singular scenes on PC, until you are happy with their order, leaving all editing marks? THen I can imagine that it works.
THe standard method I know, is to join all that 50 ft rolls on one roll, transfer it to video and capture the frame counter of the projector (or external counter) with a second video camera. Both images, the real one and the counter number, are then mixed together with a video mixer. Your working copy now is totally numbered and you can edit anything you want. Once beeing ready, you put your original reel into a viewer with frame counter and repeat all cuts, separating all scenes. The separated scenes you clip onto a long board in their final order and splice everything together in one run.
In parallel, you can use the work copy, that should be identical to the physical film, for making the sound track on pc. After finishing, you can transfer that soundtrack to the physical film´s sound stripe, when running the film thru a crystal controlled projector.
Pedro
Thanks!
Wow!
Thank you all so much!
Would you say eBay is the best place to find one of these splicers? Do you know of any equipment shops that might sell splicers for good prices? Where do you get your splice tapes or cement?
Thanks everybody!
Arnie.
Thank you all so much!
Would you say eBay is the best place to find one of these splicers? Do you know of any equipment shops that might sell splicers for good prices? Where do you get your splice tapes or cement?
Thanks everybody!
Arnie.
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mattias
- Posts: 8356
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 1:31 pm
- Location: Gubbängen, Stockholm, Sweden
- Contact:
i though that was what i just described? ;-)Pedro wrote: but how do you exactly resolve the problem to repeat a complex fine cut made on pc with your film?
you don't have to. the frame counter is redundant information if you have time code on the video tape. freezing the video frame of the first image, a clap or whatever and writing down it's time code gives you enough information to calculate the frame number of any frame after editing. just grab the time code of the first and last frames of your clip, subtract the tc of the first frame that we wrote down before, and calculate (minutes*60+seconds)*25+frames. this gives you an edl that you can then use to conform the original by counting frames (i use a ruler, but a frame counting projector or viewer might be better). for simplicity of finding frames i don't just do this from the start of the entire transfer, but from the start of every roll, the nearest clap or similar, as described.THe standard method I know, is to join all that 50 ft rolls on one roll, transfer it to video and capture the frame counter of the projector (or external counter) with a second video camera.
/matt
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Guest
I exclusively splice by hand, I like the hands-on aspect of it. I do sometimes transfer to video in the end but I find video editing is an imprecice art with amateur equipment whereas film is easy to edit with frame accuracy.
I use a cheap tape splicer by Rowi (now extinct but the Hama tape splicer is the same and still in production). I use it for two reasons. It is all I can afford, plus I decided on tape when I looked at my grandfather's 8mm films which were handed down to me some 20-25 years after they were made. every single one had to be respliced because 80% of his cement splices had come unglued.
I use a cheap tape splicer by Rowi (now extinct but the Hama tape splicer is the same and still in production). I use it for two reasons. It is all I can afford, plus I decided on tape when I looked at my grandfather's 8mm films which were handed down to me some 20-25 years after they were made. every single one had to be respliced because 80% of his cement splices had come unglued.