VISION 200T CART - CONFUSION ABOUT INCORRECT FILTER NOTCHING

[S8 Booster]

I am currently shooting 2 Vision 200T cartridges, one from PRO8 and one from Kodak. I think both of them are incorrectly 85 filter notched. The 85 filter is always removed on my Canon 1014 XL-S in the way that the filter selector is disabled totally when I insert the carts into the cam.

Just to get things straight:

The V200T is balanced for Tungsten light? and when used in daylight condition the 85 filter IN is required?

The thing is that both carts are notched so that the 85 filter always becomes totally disabled.

On the PRO8 I notched the cart my self earlier this year and thought that this was a mistake from PRO8. This mod made the filter selectable in / out.

Well, I was even more surprised when I found that the Kodak V200T had the same "error?". I have to notch this cart too.

However, since both carts are incorrectly notched as I see it I get confused: Am I right or is PRO8 / Kodak right?

Or is simply the V200T alway shot without filter and corrected in telecine transfer? Guess the exposure would be awkward then.

Waiting in confusion.

R

[S8 Booster]

For reference i just added a picture of a cart 7240 (right) that allows the 85 filter in/out while the other one V200T (left) disables the filter always. No notch.

R

[crimsonson]

The V200T is balanced for Tungsten light? and when used in daylight condition the 85 filter IN is required?

Yes, Yes.

I never had the problem, since I never use camera's built in filter. They are not made of the highest material. Glass screw in filters or square matte types are in my opinion better. Specially if you get them from a respected company like Tiffen and Schneider.

I have several 67mm filter that I use. Fortunately, most of the high end cameras (Nizo, Leicina, Canon) all have been 67mm or 62 (step down ring for that).

[S8 Booster]

The V200T is balanced for Tungsten light? and when used in daylight condition the 85 filter IN is required?

Yes, Yes.

I neer had the problem, since I never use camera's built in filter. They are not made of the highest material. Glass screw in filters or square matte types are in my opinion better. Specially if you get them from a respected company like Tiffen and Schneider.

I have several 67mm filter that I use. Fortunately, most of the high end cameras (Nizo, Leicina, Canon) all have been 67mm or 62 (step down ring for that).

Thanks a lot. Just had to get it confirmed before I continue the shoot. I "blew" a lot of the PRO8 cart before I noticed the "error".

Sure you are right about the quality of the filters but I wonder how many has "blown" their V200T without knowing that the 85 filter is disabled. I am the only one? or hopefully I am?

R

[Nigel]

No need to fear anything--It is a Neg. stock. Therefore it will have to be Telecined. A colorist at his RANK can balance the film with thre key strokes. A grey card would be very helpful. They other option is to get an 85A screw on filter.

Good Luck

[S8 Booster]

No need to fear anything--It is a Neg. stock. Therefore it will have to be Telecined. A colorist at his RANK can balance the film with thre key strokes. A grey card would be very helpful. They other option is to get an 85A screw on filter.

Good Luck

Thanks for the advice Nigel. Hopefully they can correct the incorrectly colour temp balanced peice I shot with the P8 cart. Will add a grey cart reference too.

I also found out how to modify the cart to allow the selectable use of the built in 85 filter. That is to remove a small piece of the plastic from the cart where the 85 filter notch is in the cart compartment.

It works OK now.

TNX

R

[S8 Booster]

Like to add that the V500T I bought from PRO8mm was correctly 85 filter notched so I belive that the incorrect notching of the V200T is a true error from both Kodak and P8 and that PRO8mm just copied the V200T notching from Kodak´s carts.

R

[Andreas Wideroe]

Hi all!

2 weeks ago I shot about 10-20 Vision 200T films for a filmproject. We used Vision 200T film outdoors and filmed with 2 Beaulieu 4008zmII cameras.

Here's the deal: I shot quite a few rolls with the 85b filter ON and the ISO was set to 200 on the camera. Shutter and aparture was set to automatic.

:?: My question is: Did I overexpose the films? I got confused since 200T means Tungsten and the film is balanced for artificial light. Also, on the packaged is says 125 ISO WITH the 85b filter. However, they can't be overexposed since I always made sure the aparture was OK. If the only thing that has gone wrong is that they will become a bit bluish, it's OK since they are going to be transferred in a Telecine lab.

:arrow: I got another basic thing that has started to confuse me. Yeah, I know it's lame, but somehow I mix up things I think:

Lower ISO means we need more light. Ie. A K40 25 ISO (with filter) needs more light than a 40 ISO (without filter). This means the 85b filter takes away 15 ISO of light sensitivity from the film (in this case). You need more light for a lower ISO. An 800 Pro8mm film is so sensitive to light that it will work under rather dark conditions.

The connection between film speed, aparture and shutter will then be like this: The film sets the basic speed. The aparture operates within the max and min level of the ISO together with the shutter speed.

Am I right or totally lame? :?

Another question concerning Kodak film stocks. Is it true the Surveillance stock is infact a 200 ISO daylight balanced film? Similare to Pro8mm's Pro200D?

[crimsonson]

"Did I overexpose the films?"

No, you *underexposed* it. Overexposing is if you treated it as something lower than 125 (since its rated 125 for sunlight with 85 filter).

"However, they can't be overexposed since I always made sure the aparture was OK"

Does not matter since the camera is giving you a rating for a 200ISO, but 125 is its actual rating. HOWEVER, negative stock has an incredible latitude. So dont worry too much.


"The connection between film speed, aparture and shutter will then be like this: The film sets the basic speed. The aparture operates within the max and min level of the ISO together with the shutter speed. "

I rather put it this way - the film stock sets the minimum amount of light it can take. The aperture sets a range WITHIN the film stock limit. The shutter affects both the light limit and the overall sharpness of an image.

[S8 Booster]

Just adding a picture to try to visualize the notch and the notch/lever position.
____________________________________VISION 200T left, VNF 7240 right


R

[Nigel]

The filter in camera is an 85A not an 85B. The Kodak Ektachrome series of films needs the extra temp shift that an 85B provides. The neg stocks are all "A" balanced films. Good Luck.

[S8 Booster]

ANDREAS WROTE:

icon_question.gif My question is: Did I overexpose the films? I got confused since 200T means Tungsten and the film is balanced for artificial light. Also, on the packaged is says 125 ISO WITH the 85b filter. However, they can't be overexposed since I always made sure the aparture was OK. If the only thing that has gone wrong is that they will become a bit bluish, it's OK since they are going to be transferred in a Telecine lab.

icon_arrow.gif I got another basic thing that has started to confuse me. Yeah, I know it's lame, but somehow I mix up things I think:

Lower ISO means we need more light. Ie. A K40 25 ISO (with filter) needs more light than a 40 ISO (without filter). This means the 85b filter takes away 15 ISO of light sensitivity from the film (in this case). You need more light for a lower ISO. An 800 Pro8mm film is so sensitive to light that it will work under rather dark conditions.

The connection between film speed, aparture and shutter will then be like this: The film sets the basic speed. The aparture operates within the max and min level of the ISO together with the shutter speed.

Am I right or totally lame? icon_confused.gif

Another question concerning Kodak film stocks. Is it true the Surveillance stock is infact a 200 ISO daylight balanced film? Similare to Pro8mm's Pro200D?
_________________
Andreas Widerøe Andersen <andreas@eunet.no>

CRIMSONSON WROTE:

No, you *underexposed* it. Overexposing is if you treated it as something lower than 125 (since its rated 125 for sunlight with 85 filter).

"However, they can't be overexposed since I always made sure the aparture was OK"

Does not matter since the camera is giving you a rating for a 200ISO, but 125 is its actual rating. HOWEVER, negative stock has an incredible latitude. So dont worry too much.


"The connection between film speed, aparture and shutter will then be like this: The film sets the basic speed. The aparture operates within the max and min level of the ISO together with the shutter speed. "

Examining the above posts it seem like that for Beaulieu Cameras and all cameras with manual film speed setting The Vision200T has to be set to 125ASA using the 85 filter in daylight and 200ASA filming in tungsten light meaning that the film speed selector should be adjusted accordingly.

Crimsonson point out that with the neg film that may not be any problem due to their wide latitude.

Now, regarding reversal films K40/VNF 7240, it seem logical that the film speed selector should be set according to actual light, that is if the filming goes from indor to outdoor not only should the 85 filter be engaged but also the film speed adjusted say from 40 to 25ASA for the K40.

Cany anyone verify this?

This again leads me to other cameras with "electronic" film speed setting. I believe that those cameras should do both those adjustements filmspeed and aparture adjustement (auto) in one move: The filter selector.

If a microcontact is attached to the filter selector the film speed may be set automatically to the filter position.

Got to be like that with the "auto" cams?

[crimsonson]

I just realized something...

Andreas did correctly exposed the film and NOT underexposed. The camera should have compensated for the filter - assuming the filter is placed ahead of the meter sensor - which it should be.

Sorry for the confusion.


"The Vision200T has to be set to 125ASA using the 85 filter in daylight and 200ASA filming in tungsten light meaning that the film speed selector should be adjusted accordingly. "

No it does not have to. I made a mistake. Testing it is easy, turn off and on the filter and see if the cam's meter changes by 1/2 - 3/4 of a stop.

[S8 Booster]

Ok thanks, seem very reasonable.

R

[andy]

sorry if this has already been answered,but can i buy 200 T, load it into my 1014xl-s and get correct exposure on auto without having to do anything to the cartridge.or will i have to cut out notches on the cartridge..