How Stable?

[polecatdigital]

I've never shot S8 before, and I was wondering how stable the image is if I had stuff rank transfered? Would the image be soild or jittery?

[Andreas Wideroe]

The picture should be solid, though there have been and are issues with bad cartridges and bad cameras that you ought to keep in mind. The cartridge problem is fixed now according to Kodak, but old cameras that haven't been used in years could contain bad mechanics and stuff.

Cheers!

/Andreas

[focusgroup]

Dont worry about S8 not being pin registered. This requirement for a stable image is a myth. None of the aatons have pin registration and their imaging is extremely stable.

[MovieStuff]

The picture should be solid, though there have been and are issues with bad cartridges and bad cameras that you ought to keep in mind.

Well, actually, the Rank breathes quite a bit for super 8 compared to a regular projector. The breathing isn't as noticable on 35mm but as the format gets smaller, the breathing is more and more noticable.

Roger

[polecatdigital]

Thanks for the input. I'm going to shoot some test rolls and see how they come out.

[Nigel]

I have never had any sort of problems with RANK Xfers of Super8. I have always had rock solid results.

Good Luck

[mattias]

I have never had any sort of problems with RANK Xfers of Super8. I have always had rock solid results.

i've seen both. it depends on the machine (set up exclusively for super-8 is better), the stock (negative is better), the operator (sober is better), the phase of the moon (not sure here) and a lot of other things.

/matt

[MovieStuff]

I have never had any sort of problems with RANK Xfers of Super8. I have always had rock solid results.

Not to be argumentative but "rock solid" can be very subjective. I've done quite a bit of effects in 35mm and the breathing on a Rank is quite noticable. We always have to get a steadigate for the Rank or the breathing is just too much for compositing work. The amount of breathing per sprocket hole edge is the same, regardless of the size of the film. If you zoom in with the Rank to an 8mm size section of 35mm film, it will be breathing quite a lot. That amount will not really change if you are using super 8 directly.

I agree with Mattias. I have seen some fairly stable Rank transfers of super 8 and I've seen some really floaty transfers. However, I've never seen what I would call a "rock solid" transfer off the Rank in any format, unless a steadigate is used. After all, that gate was created for a reason; Rank transfers breath enough to be noticed and the smaller the format, the more it can be seen.

Roger

[polecatdigital]

So, Roger, how stable would the stuff be if you did the transfer for me? Does it have anything to do with my camera, or how it's transfered or both?

[MovieStuff]

So, Roger, how stable would the stuff be if you did the transfer for me? Does it have anything to do with my camera, or how it's transfered or both?

Both, really. There is a difference between "jitter" and "breathing". Breathing is generally something that you find with flying spot scanners like the Rank Cintel unit since it does not have mechanical registration. As mentioned above, larger formats like 35mm do not reveal the trait as much but, the smaller the format, the more the breathing will be noticable. How much is totally dependent on the type of footage you are producing. If you have a lot of handheld shots, the breathing probably won't be noticable at all. Locked off shots on a tripod will accentuate the breathing quite a bit. The DV8 and the WorkPrinter series have far better registration than a normal Rank transfer since the DV8 and WP use mechanical registration that is really rock solid, both up and down and laterally.

Here's a link to a trailer that Manuel put together. He shot some really, really nice black and white for his project called "Walk the Walk". We did the transfers for him.

http://www.zanyinteractive.com.

However, jitter is a problem that can be caused by both the camera and the cartridge. Kodak had a run of bad carts for the last 3 years or so (unbelievably!). They finally fessed up to it but there are still some carts on the market so it's kind of a crap shoot what you get these days in the way of carts that don't have the Kodak Jitters. Eventually these carts will go away. However, the other problem is that virtually every camera out there is about 30 years old or so. It is not unreasonable to consider that aging cameras can also cause some jitter in a perfectly good cart.

As such, I think that one of the best things to do if you buy a camera is to probably purchase a single roll of some Pro8mm film. Any stock will do. The main thing is that they use their own carts so the jitter problem won't be an issue. If you shoot a test roll and get jitter in the results, then it's a pretty good bet it's your camera. If you use a Kodak cart, you really won't know what caused the jitter. Kind of sucks but that's the way it is these days.

Roger

[S8 Booster]

Moviestuff wrote:

If you shoot a test roll and get jitter in the results, then it's a pretty good bet it's your camera. If you use a Kodak cart, you really won't know what caused the jitter. Kind of sucks but that's the way it is these days.

There may also be another factor concerning the jitter "factory". Check the info below from Andec, Berlin. It points out that the VNF & V200T film are different (thicker?) than the K40 thus causing the jitter. As I understand it these carts may be optimized for k40 and may not be tuned to thicker films?

Anyway, I think that the results and problems refered to below may have been enhanced by the thicker VNF & V200T films causing even more jitter than the K40 with the bad carts?


Check:

http://andecfilm.de/html/bildstand_1e.htm

The new device is a precision-manufactured, hard-chrome-plated brass plate which is simply additionally fitted into the pressure plate window of any
Super 8 cassette to do its miracle. What has been seen so far, the following improvements can be achieved realized:

- The higher precision of the guiding device leads to a clearly improved
   picture steadiness, both horizontally and vertically.
 
- With the lens correctly adjusted, a uniform sharpness of the picture is
   achieved over the entire width of the image area. Partly unsharp pictures
   or “bumping” sharpness are a thing of the past. Sharpness variations do
   not occur any more.
      
- The film runs smoother through the camera, thus producing far less
   camera noise.
  
- The improved pressure of the film towards the film gate results in a distinctly
   improved picture quality.
 
- Slow-motion and high-speed takes can be capture without problems.
 
- The danger of a plastic cassette pressure window causing scratches on
   the base side of the film is reduced - which is of high importance for all
   later video transfers.
 
This all can be particularly observed when using new film material like
VNF 7240 (Ektachrome 125 ASA, color reversal film stock) and
Vision 200 T (color negative film stock).

R

[MovieStuff]

Hmmmm. I would think that if the new pressure plate (which increases pressure on the film) were to improve registration, then the thicker the film, the more likely that registration would NOT be a problem with the Kodak carts without the addition of the new pressure plate. I don't see how they can claim that the increased pressure of the plate will make an improvement on thinner films while also claiming that thicker film will cause problems without the pressure plate. Then, if you use the thicker film AND use the pressure plate, the tension on the film would have to be excessive, wouldn't it? Something doesn't seem quite right to me. Am I missing something?

Roger

[S8 Booster]

I agree on your analyze. Did not post it to promote the pressure plate, only showing the context to the VNF & V200T enhanced jitter. I would not recommend anyone to buy that plate without doing some thorough tests with a good K40 + other "good cart" film material (VNF - V200T / BW etc) first, the good K40 beeing the reference. This may show if the camera is OK anyway.

The plate could be lifesaver for some. Do not know.

The only thing I can come up with is that if the VNF/V200T film is thicker than the K40 it may function as a more powerful "spring"(more film tension) which release energy after the claw is relased from the film, thus moving it a little out of position before the shutter opens (at uneven steps).

Have no idea on exactly how that (film/claw/advance/shutter) is timed though but the theory may be that the film may actually "slip back" (or forward) some after the claw transported it to the correct position of the gate and relase the film.

The pressure plate may put so high pressure on the film that it prevents it from slipping back (or forward) working as a parking brake?

Just a theory though.

I have almost finished shooting 4 Pro8 neg carts and a "good" VNF cart along with some confirmed good K40s so I will soon get a good reference on my own cam to find out if there is a real "natural" difference due to the film material between the K40 and the or film stocks.

All carts runs accoustically as smooth as an oiled snake in the cam so I x my fingers for the results.

Hmmmm. I would think that if the new pressure plate (which increases pressure on the film) were to improve registration, then the thicker the film, the more likely that registration would NOT be a problem with the Kodak carts without the addition of the new pressure plate. I don't see how they can claim that the increased pressure of the plate will make an improvement on thinner films while also claiming that thicker film will cause problems without the pressure plate. Then, if you use the thicker film AND use the pressure plate, the tension on the film would have to be excessive, wouldn't it? Something doesn't seem quite right to me. Am I missing something?

Roger

R

[Ludwig]

Hallo.
I can only tell you the results, using the pressure plate. You have
defenitely a better steadiness and more sharpness with VNF 7240
and Color-Negative Vision 200. The running problems of the thicker stock in the gate are mostly eleminated. The gate reduces
the tolerances and possible flutter of the stock and film runs smoother through the plan surface. Thats all, easy- but it works.
Greetings
Ludwig

[tfunch24 being lazy]

I recently filmed with some jittery Ektachrome 7240 and Tri-X carts; the E7240 was new but the Tri-X was left over from last Spring. I just tested another two carts of E7240 and Tri-X and they both came back fine. So there are still some jittery carts out there as well as malfunctioning cameras.

On the whole, with decent film, a camera in good condition, and a projector in good condition, S8 is pretty stable. R8 is even more stable because of its more solid construction. As for Rank Cinetel Breathing, I've never used a Rank so I can't elaborate on that.

Tom