Pressure Plate Question
Moderator: Andreas Wideroe
Pressure Plate Question
Patrick mentioned this device to minimize focus errors. Is anyone using it?
Last edited by disjecta on Thu Jan 08, 2004 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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S8 Booster
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I have done some tests with it recently on VNF7240, V200T and Fuji F500T recently but it will take some time before I get them transferred for comparable results.
Never had a breathing or focussing problem with K40 with any of my cams but there are reports that other than K40 material may get problems in general. I certainly got problems with PRO8mm neg films with my Canon 1014 XL-S. I do not know if the PP may have solved this but it could certainly not get worse.
R
Never had a breathing or focussing problem with K40 with any of my cams but there are reports that other than K40 material may get problems in general. I certainly got problems with PRO8mm neg films with my Canon 1014 XL-S. I do not know if the PP may have solved this but it could certainly not get worse.
R
..tnx for reminding me Michael Lehnert.... or Santo or.... cinematography.com super8 - the forum of Rednex, Wannabees and Pretenders...
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vanderVelden
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Re: Andec pressure plate
I bougth this pressure plate a year ago, hoping that my films would even be sharper as they are already. Unfurtunately I have noticed that there is really NO improvement, whether I use it with my Canon 814 XL or my Beaulieu 4008 ZM II, or my Bolex 155, or Bauer, etc etc, the picture is always the same: good, but not better without.disjecta wrote:Patrick mentioned this device to minimize focus errors. Is anyone using it?
So my advice to you is " Do not buy it as you are really wasting your money".
regards,
George van der Velden
Pretoria -South Africa
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Santo
I've been hovering over the keys to my computer, one of my credit cards out of the wallet, a few times over the past couple of weeks -- unsure. Should I order a pressure plate? Shouldn't I?
I'm actually not concerned with K40. It's the perfect thickness for super 8 specs it seems, and the two rolls of that stock I've shot since delving into the format showed little or no noticeable stability or focus breathing issues. No that it's completely free of it, however, when you do some close scrutiny. But nothing to really complain about if your camera is working properly.
Problem is, though I like it, I'm not at all interested in restricting myself to K40! Rock-bottom ASA, super-shallow latitude, too contrasty for good reproduction, et al. And I love black and white. Plus-X proved hit and miss stability and almost directly dependent on camera (and the whims of fate, seemingly) in my experience. It really pissed me off, actually! And there's so many colour film stocks that seem perfect for super 8 use that I really want to try. I LOVE every darn thing about this format except the stability issues.
I've read Super8 Booster's many reports on this thing, good and then reserved. Suggesting sometimes it's unneeded. I've seen the examples on the websites that sell it. Seems worth it -- and yet...
I know some other people on this site are now in possession of one of these things, Lunar7 and christoph come to mind. It sounds like Lunar is waiting for some footage to come back. I hope he posts an opinion on its effectiveness.
christoph promised us an unbiased, chart-tested report not only on the pressure plate, but on several quality super 8 cameras. I sure hope he posts something soon on this. Mainly about the plate.
Also, here's a question: has anybody used one of these pressure plates with a Russian reloadable cart? Does it fit? This is something maybe Super8 Booster knows about. I know he has both these items and must have checked if it works. These carts are another item I'm looking into as well.
Though of course these things will have no impact on my filming next week to make sure a project can be completed in time for some deadlines, unfortunately!
Lastly, I think the real issue for the plate is STABILITY rather than sharpness. Does it make your images more stable and pretty much eliminate stutter, weave, and focus breathing? I can't imagine you'd see any real difference in sharpness -- except that if those other variables are made constant (or rather eliminated), then sharpness remains constant.
I'm actually not concerned with K40. It's the perfect thickness for super 8 specs it seems, and the two rolls of that stock I've shot since delving into the format showed little or no noticeable stability or focus breathing issues. No that it's completely free of it, however, when you do some close scrutiny. But nothing to really complain about if your camera is working properly.
Problem is, though I like it, I'm not at all interested in restricting myself to K40! Rock-bottom ASA, super-shallow latitude, too contrasty for good reproduction, et al. And I love black and white. Plus-X proved hit and miss stability and almost directly dependent on camera (and the whims of fate, seemingly) in my experience. It really pissed me off, actually! And there's so many colour film stocks that seem perfect for super 8 use that I really want to try. I LOVE every darn thing about this format except the stability issues.
I've read Super8 Booster's many reports on this thing, good and then reserved. Suggesting sometimes it's unneeded. I've seen the examples on the websites that sell it. Seems worth it -- and yet...
I know some other people on this site are now in possession of one of these things, Lunar7 and christoph come to mind. It sounds like Lunar is waiting for some footage to come back. I hope he posts an opinion on its effectiveness.
christoph promised us an unbiased, chart-tested report not only on the pressure plate, but on several quality super 8 cameras. I sure hope he posts something soon on this. Mainly about the plate.
Also, here's a question: has anybody used one of these pressure plates with a Russian reloadable cart? Does it fit? This is something maybe Super8 Booster knows about. I know he has both these items and must have checked if it works. These carts are another item I'm looking into as well.
Though of course these things will have no impact on my filming next week to make sure a project can be completed in time for some deadlines, unfortunately!
Lastly, I think the real issue for the plate is STABILITY rather than sharpness. Does it make your images more stable and pretty much eliminate stutter, weave, and focus breathing? I can't imagine you'd see any real difference in sharpness -- except that if those other variables are made constant (or rather eliminated), then sharpness remains constant.
Last edited by Santo on Thu Jan 08, 2004 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Andreas Wideroe
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It's not named Andec pressure plate. It's called the High Precision Pressure Plate and GK Film sells and manufactures them.
http://www.gkfilm.de/
Andreas
http://www.gkfilm.de/
Andreas
Andreas Wideroe
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Actually Andreas,
I was looking at this link: http://www.andecfilm.de/html/bildstand_1e.htm
They call it "The Frame Master". Not sure if it's exactly the same... but for US customers, your link seems to be a better deal.
I was looking at this link: http://www.andecfilm.de/html/bildstand_1e.htm
They call it "The Frame Master". Not sure if it's exactly the same... but for US customers, your link seems to be a better deal.
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Santo
:lol: I'm going with Andreas and also the guy at the site at the link who invented/patented/builds the thing.
Frankly, if I were Andreas, I'd edit every post and call it the NORSK SMALFILM PRESSURE PLATE. Because he sells it. But he's too good of a moderator for that.
Good thing I don't run this board.
Frankly, if I were Andreas, I'd edit every post and call it the NORSK SMALFILM PRESSURE PLATE. Because he sells it. But he's too good of a moderator for that.
Good thing I don't run this board.-
christoph
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it is the same, andec just resells it as is wittner....disjecta wrote:I was looking at this link: http://www.andecfilm.de/html/bildstand_1e.htm
They call it "The Frame Master". Not sure if it's exactly the same... but for US customers, your link seems to be a better deal.
the original designer and manufacturer (they are still hand milled) is Gottfried Klose.. i had the pleasure to meet him before christmas as he was in berlin for a few days and we were talking about a lot of things super8 as you can imagine... he's really one of the old school filmmakers who grew up with this stuff.. made me feel like a noob in some respects ;)
jeah, just got back the films yesterday but it seems i goofed on some things (mainly exposure) and the results are difficult to compare.. so i'm thinking about reshooting the tests and eliminating these issues.Santo wrote:christoph promised us an unbiased, chart-tested report not only on the pressure plate, but on several quality super 8 cameras. I sure hope he posts something soon on this. Mainly about the plate.
but since i'll start shooting a shortfilm on sunday (my first 35mm project) i wont have time the next 2 weeks i'm afraid.. my apologies to the group.
jup, this is exactly what mr klose said... he also mentioned that plus-x/tri-x will benefit more than K40 because the film is thinner which results in more breathing. also the last third of the cartridge should benefit the most since registration gets worse there.. but i'll write a full report about that when i made up my own mind.Santo wrote:Lastly, I think the real issue for the plate is STABILITY rather than sharpness. Does it make your images more stable and pretty much eliminate stutter, weave, and focus breathing? I can't imagine you'd see any real difference in sharpness -- except that if those other variables are made constant (or rather eliminated), then sharpness remains constant.
++ christoph ++
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S8 Booster
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To sum up a little:
My "test" with PRO8 neg film 50D/200T/250D/500T and the Canon 1014 XL-S turned out more or less useless due to breathing and jitter.
I am a firm beliver in that the PP would corrected improved this but it is hard to tell to what extent. The V200T was the least jittery cart of them.
If I remember correctly Carlos has shot various non std k40 stock with the Kaccemas and had no problem with jitter or breathing.
I (again) believe the pressurplate is not required with the Kaccemas because the pressureplate is already of metal (Which I *again* believe is not the real problem) but the main difference vs the Kodak carts is the very hard pressure on the plate which (if the cam can manage the extra pull force) have to add stability to the image - one way or another.
I am sure the plate *will* improve the stability for non K40 S8 filmstocks.
I think there are differences in between cams which makes the demand a little unpredicable.
I can not tell for sure how good it is until I get my test carts properly transferred.
I have shot tests with it as follows:
Cams: Nikon R10 and Canon 1014 Xl-S with and without PP.
Filmstocks:
Ekta 125/VNF 7240 rev [Kodak]
Vision 200T neg [Kodak]
Fuji F500T neg [PRO8]
If you have time to wait and see I recommend you to examine mine or others results before going for the plate. It may also be somewhat cam dependant if you need it or not.
I now believe that the (if) instability on the Kodak carts is caused by the actual suspension system. If the pressure on the plate is too low the plate itself will "wobble". Thus it is not the plastic material which is the problem but the supension system/mounting. This can (could) be easily overcome by increasing the spring force or even better: A minor re-design by Kodak on the cart PP system would easily make the PP stability as good as any reel-reel cam PP.
If my theory is right the GK PP may not always eliminate the instability. It will wobble with the original plate which it is "mounted" on. My tests with the Provia seem to support this theory as it seemed to have no effect on either the Nikon or Canon. Note that this was before I modified the PP to match the Registration pin on the Nikon. The pin would not penetrate the perf on the film because it met the plate too early.
All my current tests with the Nikon are shot with the modified plate.
R
My "test" with PRO8 neg film 50D/200T/250D/500T and the Canon 1014 XL-S turned out more or less useless due to breathing and jitter.
I am a firm beliver in that the PP would corrected improved this but it is hard to tell to what extent. The V200T was the least jittery cart of them.
If I remember correctly Carlos has shot various non std k40 stock with the Kaccemas and had no problem with jitter or breathing.
I (again) believe the pressurplate is not required with the Kaccemas because the pressureplate is already of metal (Which I *again* believe is not the real problem) but the main difference vs the Kodak carts is the very hard pressure on the plate which (if the cam can manage the extra pull force) have to add stability to the image - one way or another.
I am sure the plate *will* improve the stability for non K40 S8 filmstocks.
I think there are differences in between cams which makes the demand a little unpredicable.
I can not tell for sure how good it is until I get my test carts properly transferred.
I have shot tests with it as follows:
Cams: Nikon R10 and Canon 1014 Xl-S with and without PP.
Filmstocks:
Ekta 125/VNF 7240 rev [Kodak]
Vision 200T neg [Kodak]
Fuji F500T neg [PRO8]
If you have time to wait and see I recommend you to examine mine or others results before going for the plate. It may also be somewhat cam dependant if you need it or not.
I now believe that the (if) instability on the Kodak carts is caused by the actual suspension system. If the pressure on the plate is too low the plate itself will "wobble". Thus it is not the plastic material which is the problem but the supension system/mounting. This can (could) be easily overcome by increasing the spring force or even better: A minor re-design by Kodak on the cart PP system would easily make the PP stability as good as any reel-reel cam PP.
If my theory is right the GK PP may not always eliminate the instability. It will wobble with the original plate which it is "mounted" on. My tests with the Provia seem to support this theory as it seemed to have no effect on either the Nikon or Canon. Note that this was before I modified the PP to match the Registration pin on the Nikon. The pin would not penetrate the perf on the film because it met the plate too early.
All my current tests with the Nikon are shot with the modified plate.
R
..tnx for reminding me Michael Lehnert.... or Santo or.... cinematography.com super8 - the forum of Rednex, Wannabees and Pretenders...
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Santo
Thanks for summerizing your impressions on this!
I guess I'll wait a little longer for independant press plate results before I invest. If not, maybe I will buy some reloadable carts after all and break open Kodak carts and reload the film into them -- until Paul has his machine up and running or I find other alternatives. I just simply can't shoot another super 8 project uncertain what shots might be wrecked because of this silly stability issue. There's too much set up and time invested and money spent on film, developing and all the rest. Plus the good will of the people helping me.
I guess I'll wait a little longer for independant press plate results before I invest. If not, maybe I will buy some reloadable carts after all and break open Kodak carts and reload the film into them -- until Paul has his machine up and running or I find other alternatives. I just simply can't shoot another super 8 project uncertain what shots might be wrecked because of this silly stability issue. There's too much set up and time invested and money spent on film, developing and all the rest. Plus the good will of the people helping me.