Ektachrome and 200T exposure questions

Post by **shralp** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:02 pm

Ok, I'm finally going to shoot something other than K-40 and B/W stock with my Nizo Professional this winter and I have some questions regarding exposure with my Nizo Pro. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

1) On the Ektachrome, I want to shoot this with an 85B for proper colors and I'm assuming that the filter in my Nizo is a straight 85. Is the best thing to do in this case is just keep my filter switch in the Tungsten position, keeping the in-camera 85 from flipping down and put a 85B filter on the lens element? Lets say that I didn't do this and flipped down the in cam filter AND added a 85B on the front element. I'd be double filtering at this point which would basically knock me down like 2 or 2.5 stops right? Two 85's won't affect the color more that one 85, it will just knock the exposure down, right? (I've always wondered this as far as filter stacking identical filters, hmmmm.....)

2) On the 200T, since its a new film stock, any comments on how my cam is going to adjust the meter for exposure? Not sure how the carts are notched and if the cam will recognize what the cart is telling it to adjust accordingly. Any comments?

Thanks.

Post by **longhorn8** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:01 pm

That's what I would do when shooting ektachrome. Just keep the filter switch on Tungsten and attach the 85B to the lens to get proper color correction. Two 85's won't double the color correction, they will just knock down your exposure. Were you trying to maybe use them together as some form of a ND filter? I just read about the filters. The 85 filter (in the camera) drops the color temp from 5500K (daylight) to 3400K (K40 balanced tungsten). The Ektachrome is balanced at 3200K. So the 85B is a stronger filter: it warms the image more than the 85. It drops the color temp from 5500K to 3200K. My guess is that you could use the two together and still get the correct colors if you were trying to just knock down the exposure rating.

As for the 200T i'm guessing your camera is going to read it and adjust accordingly. I just shot my first roll of 200T on a canon 814XL-S with no problems.

Brad

Post by **jessh** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:17 pm

Colored filters subtract certain colors of light, if you stack 2 of the same colored filter it will subtract the colors twice. In the case of the 85s it subtracts some of the blue in sunlight(okay maybe this is a little simplified). so if you subtract the blue twice you will have less blue then if you subtract it once. So unless I am missing something using 2 filters of the same color WILL do more than just decrease the exposure more than one.....

External color correction filters will most likely be better quality than the internal filters, but there are some drawbacks. The nice thing about the built in filter is that it doesn't decrease the brightness of the viewfinder. So using a filter in front of the lens will make the image dimmer and with the already dim viewfinders in some cameras this could be a problem. Not necessarily a huge problem but something to keep in mind. The difference between 3200K and 3400K isn't that big of one and most people don't really bother with the difference.

As for the ASA setting of 200T, Most Super8 cameras will not be able to set the cameras setting exactly at 200, instead they will set it to 160. The same is true for Ektachrome which is 125ASA, it will be set at 160. Most people just live with this and it doesn't really cause them problems. The exposure latitude of 200T is plenty to handle the difference, which will most likely be less of a difference than there is between what most in camera meters will read and what is "ideal." I personaly use my brain and a handheld light meter to set exposure.

There was also some talk a while back about the fact that Kodak Vision 200T carts did not have the tungsten film notch making it impossible for many cameras to use their built in daylight filter. This can be fixed by notching the cart but most often it is simply corrected during the Telecine.

~Jess

Post by **shralp** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:30 am

Nice, thanks for the input guys. I'll make some adjustments accordingly. Yeah, now that I think about it, I may actually be ok by just using the in cam 85 with the ektachrome. It may be a little off on the color but since everything I shoot goes straight onto high-end Philips telecine with Da Vinci color correction, I would hope that any discrepancies could be fixed.

Post by **S8 Booster** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:42 am

I have shot the V200T under the following conditions without any real visual difference after the film was telecined.

Daylight conditions:
ASA 160 - No 85 filter in use (Which is incorrect) excellent result
ASA 200 - No 85 filter in use (Which is incorrect) excellent result
ASA 160 - With 85 filter in use - result apparently as above
ASA 200 - With 85 filter in use - result apparently as above
Tungsten light conditions:
ASA 160 - no 85 filter in use - result apparently as above
ASA 200 - no 85 filter in use - result apparently as above no real difference from the 160 setting.

The various incorrect settings did not cause any problems that was not easliy elimiated in the telecine.

According to the 16mm shooters around here the V200T film seem to get even better with some overexposure.
My results did certainly not contradict this.

R

Post by **shralp** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:34 am

Nice. Thanks for the info. I was leaning a bit towards slightly over exposing as well. I'll give it a try.

Post by **S8 Booster** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:46 am

Forgot to mention:

From my shoot with the V200T I found the grain to be pretty acceptable when there is "decent" light avaiable.
The grain size builds up when the light drops.
In my view proper light setting = grain control. (reduced grain)

Even the V(1)500T became virtually "gran free" in bright sun daylight conditions shot at 400 ASA.

Guess the grain issue is mostly a S8 thing. (adequate light conditions considered)

R

Post by **christoph** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:09 am

S8 Booster wrote:Daylight conditions:
ASA 160 - No 85 filter in use (Which is incorrect) excellent result
[...]
The various incorrect settings did not cause any problems that was not easliy elimiated in the telecine.

jup,, as long as you only go for telecine the 85 filter is really rather of psycholocical value... if you shoot it for print, there is a slight difference in the shadows .. which prolly only some tech geeks will notice.

According to the 16mm shooters around here the V200T film seem to get even better with some overexposure.

actually all color negative films show "better" (subjective, so lets say diffferent) results on overexposure than on their marked rating. one reason for this is marketing, specially with the high ASA films (500ASA just looks better than 320ASA).
what happens if you overexpose is that you have a dense negative which must be printed down.. so you don't use the toe of the curve, which results in slightly higher contrast and therefore slightly less apparent grain. also color saturation is a bit higher... all that is is usually considered desirable, so overexposing is the norm specially if you shoot super16 for blow-up, but is often done on 35mm too. (add you really should do it with your still photo film too)

i usually go for 1/3 to 2/3 stops, depending on the desired look on how much light i have.

++ christoph ++

Post by **S8 Booster** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:36 am

christoph wrote: i usually go for 1/3 to 2/3 stops, depending on the desired look on how much light i have.

++ christoph ++

I have recently started to shoot my favourite 35mm still film stock - the Fuji Press 800 at ISO 630 and the results are improvements in line with your description.

I have als seen some other professional still shooters refer to the same experience.

R

Post by **Lunar07** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:32 pm

S8 Booster wrote:
christoph wrote: i usually go for 1/3 to 2/3 stops, depending on the desired look on how much light i have.

++ christoph ++

I have recently started to shoot my favourite 35mm still film stock - the Fuji Press 800 at ISO 630 and the results are improvements in line with your description.

I have als seen some other professional still shooters refer to the same experience.

R

I understand that:
K40 is A-Type film and is 3400K Tungsten (Photoflood lamps) Balanced,
Ektachrome 160 7240 is 3200K Tungsten Balanced.

What kind of Tungsten is Vision 200T balanced for? 3400K or 3200K?
Thanks,
Lunar

Post by **S8 Booster** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:15 pm

check out:

KODAK VISION 200T Color Negative Film 5274 / 7274
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/produ ... html#color

Color Balance

This film is balanced for exposure with tungsten illumination (3200 K). You can also expose it with tungsten lamps that have slightly higher or lower color temperatures (Ã‚Â±150 K) without correction filters, since final color balancing can be done in printing. For other light sources, use the correction filters in the table below:

EASTMAN EKTACHROME Film (Tungsten) 5240/7240
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/produ ... l#colorbal

Color Balance
These films are balanced for exposure with tungsten illumination (3200K). For other light sources, use the correction filters in the table below.

R

Santo · Post by **Santo** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:18 pm

Kodak says 3200 on the website.

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/produ ... 5274.shtml

I'm really looking forward to reading more about this Vision2 200T stuff coming out in a few months in super 8. Sounds very interesting. I wonder if there's any more information on this stock?

Santo · Post by **Santo** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:19 pm

Oh. S8 Booster beat me to the punch.

Post by **S8 Booster** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:19 pm

Sorry abt that

Anyway I believe you can do just about everything wrong with neg film as it will be corrected in a proper transfer. The V200T cartridges I tested was/is :!: incorrectly notched so it disables the 85 daylight filer continously on most cams. I shot 10-20 seconds before I realized this but the transferred DV copy shows absolutely so difference in colours or exposure so I think it is not very critical for the shoot. Suffient light on the other hand is very beneficial to reduce grain.

R

Post by **Lunar07** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:52 pm

S8 Booster wrote:Sorry abt that

Anyway I believe you can do just about everything wrong with neg film as it will be corrected in a proper transfer. The V200T cartridges I tested was/is :!: incorrectly notched so it disables the 85 daylight filer continously on most cams. I shot 10-20 seconds before I realized this but the transferred DV copy shows absolutely so difference in colours or exposure so I think it is not very critical for the shoot. Suffient light on the other hand is very beneficial to reduce grain.

R

I was not even aware that there was a notch for setting the filter. All the cameras I have, have a switch to manually enable and disable the 85 filter. Can you give an example of a camera where the filter is automatically set via the notch?