How come there are no super 8 projectors with 250 watt ELC?

[slashmaster]

Was wondering why the 250 watt halogen ELC bulbs which are very common for 16mm aren't in any super 8 projectors? I spent a good deal of time going through all the super 8 projectors on super8data. The ones with 50 or 100 watt halogens were the majority. The ones with 150 watt halogens were few and the ones with 200 watt were only the Elmo GS-1200's and a couple of fumeo's. Anything with 250 watts or more was either xenon or metal halide. Does anyone know the reason this was never done? Also has anyone ever heard of someone who tried putting a 250 watt halogen in a super 8?

[granfer]

8mm was conceived and marketed as a "home" product, therefore designed to be "economic" both for taking and showing. By definition it was intended for a mas market which called for cheap projectors working on relatively small screens Most projectors had low wattage bulbs to start with, gradually increasing to the 100 Watt level..... at which point the problems of protecting the very small 8mm frame (1/4 the size of 16mm) from heat became difficult to overcome in a low cost machine. The advent of Super 8 with it's larger frame meant 150 W became generally achievable (mass production and up-take made projectors more affordable and sophisticated), and a few "semi-professional" machines, for those with deeper pockets. with 200W lamps appeared. For those who HAD to have larger screens, the improved light efficiency of MH and Xenon lamps made it possible, with a large increase in cost and elaborate heat precautions.
BUT, 8mm and Super 8 were always predominately "amateur" gauges, unlike 16mm which made economical filming available to the wealthy amateur and smaller professional, and revolutionised the "Mobile Cinema" industry prior to the Second World War and for many years after.

[slashmaster]

8mm was conceived and marketed as a "home" product, therefore designed to be "economic" both for taking and showing. By definition it was intended for a mas market which called for cheap projectors working on relatively small screens Most projectors had low wattage bulbs to start with, gradually increasing to the 100 Watt level..... at which point the problems of protecting the very small 8mm frame (1/4 the size of 16mm) from heat became difficult to overcome in a low cost machine. The advent of Super 8 with it's larger frame meant 150 W became generally achievable (mass production and up-take made projectors more affordable and sophisticated), and a few "semi-professional" machines, for those with deeper pockets. with 200W lamps appeared. For those who HAD to have larger screens, the improved light efficiency of MH and Xenon lamps made it possible, with a large increase in cost and elaborate heat precautions.
BUT, 8mm and Super 8 were always predominately "amateur" gauges, unlike 16mm which made economical filming available to the wealthy amateur and smaller professional, and revolutionised the "Mobile Cinema" industry prior to the Second World War and for many years after.

Thanks Granfer. Are you talking about the whole history of 8mm or just the halogen era and up here? Because there are definitely 750 watt tungsten keystones and 500 watt tungsten bell and howells from the 40's and 50's, probably even earlier. So they've been dealing with the heat from those kinds of bulbs then, surely they can deal with the heat of a mere 250 watts from the 60's onward.

[bolextech]

The ELC bulb is designed to focus it's light on the larger 16mm frame. If you tried to adapt this bulb to a super-8 projector, a lot of that light would be simply wasted on the smaller super-8 frame. So no real gain in brightness but a lot more heat.

Jean-Louis

[granfer]

I am not familiar with the very early B&H or Keystone 8mm machines using higher wattage tungsten lighting, but my long experience (I am in my late Seventies) with projectors generally would suggest to me that the efficiency of the optical systems of machines with "large filament" lamps, separate mirrors and condensers would be considerably less than those with compact tungsten or halogen lamps with built-in mirrors specifically deigned o cover just the 8mm frame (unlike the ELC).
If this is the case then quite a large part of the light (and heat) would not reach the film, disappearing up[ those enormous chimneys which were a feature of earlier machines.

Not a definitive answer, but I suspect close to the mark.

granfer

[slashmaster]

Thanks Bolextech, thanks Granfer. I had the idea since both bulbs are the same diameter and look the same that the EFR would be just as wasteful going through a super 8 frame as a ELC. But the EFR is more energy dense in the center for the super 8 frame? Must have a different curve on the reflector. Wonder what would happen if I tried throwing in a 24 volt 200 watt ejl or esc? Those are meant for the super 8 frame right?

[granfer]

No idea. Only way to find out is to try!

[nikonr10]

No idea. Only way to find out is to try!

What Projector do your want to try this with ? as at best blow the fuses at worse set the own thing on fire ? also built up of heat can cause a fire , really do think this is a wise thing to ? DO ?

[aj]

Thanks Bolextech, thanks Granfer. I had the idea since both bulbs are the same diameter and look the same that the EFR would be just as wasteful going through a super 8 frame as a ELC. But the EFR is more energy dense in the center for the super 8 frame? Must have a different curve on the reflector. Wonder what would happen if I tried throwing in a 24 volt 200 watt ejl or esc? Those are meant for the super 8 frame right?

at donsbulbs.com there are usually technical specifications listed with the lamps. Along with diagrams etc.

Apart from the voltage you cannot just hook up a 200 Watt bulb to a 100 Watt transformer. The fuse will hopefully blow and otherwise you may very well get a meltdown in the secondary coil and you might burn down the house.

[bolextech]

I assumed that anyone trying this experiment would power the bulb from a separate external transformer just to be safe.

Jean-Louis

[nikonr10]

No idea. Only way to find out is to try!

What Projector do your want to try this with ? as at best blow the fuses at worse set the own thing on fire ? also built up of heat can cause a fire , really do think this is a wise thing to ? DO ?

SUPER 8 Film projectors that run at 250 lamp are not cheap for no reason back when there came out to even now ? as so much has gone into making one ?

Even ones that run at 150w still people are very happy with ! and are not that cheap as a rule ?

So with the risk's it's kind of crazy to want to do this? also with a film you would hold dear ? to much to lose ? But each too his own !

[slashmaster]

Thanks guys, yes I'm going to use a different transformer. Will probably start out just temporarely running the power from a 16mm projector which is already 24 volts and handles that kind of power.

[slashmaster]

No idea. Only way to find out is to try!

What Projector do your want to try this with ? as at best blow the fuses at worse set the own thing on fire ? also built up of heat can cause a fire , really do think this is a wise thing to ? DO ?

SUPER 8 Film projectors that run at 250 lamp are not cheap for no reason back when there came out to even now ? as so much has gone into making one ?

Even ones that run at 150w still people are very happy with ! and are not that cheap as a rule ?

So with the risk's it's kind of crazy to want to do this? also with a film you would hold dear ? to much to lose ? But each too his own !

The projector I'm going to try this with is already meant for 150 watts. So I think if I put in a 200 watt and run it at 24 fps where the fan spins faster it will still stay cool enough. I would never leave it running all by itself anyway.

[granfer]

The consensus of opinion (including mine) is don't mess around with what qualified designers have put time, money and devoted effort into producing SAFELY for everyone's pleasure.
But if you are determined to prove just how wrong they and us are, please don't keep asking our opinion, or keep us in suspense any longer.
When you have plucked up the courage to actually do it, PLEASE, PLEASE let us know what the result was.
I await it with bated breath (and tongue in cheek!!).

[slashmaster]

The consensus of opinion (including mine) is don't mess around with what qualified designers have put time, money and devoted effort into producing SAFELY for everyone's pleasure.
But if you are determined to prove just how wrong they and us are, please don't keep asking our opinion, or keep us in suspense any longer.
When you have plucked up the courage to actually do it, PLEASE, PLEASE let us know what the result was.
I await it with bated breath (and tongue in cheek!!).

For now I'm content with 150 but when I'm not anymore I'll take pics and maybe even a video of the results.