Hi all,
I'm looking for a fast and if possible cheap system that can quickly give me film lengths on reels. It's just so I can give customers quotes quickly when they send me their films for scanning. Is there a device out there that can do this?
Thanks everyone,
Kevin
Film Footage Counter
Moderator: Andreas Wideroe
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gaugefilm
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Film Footage Counter
www.gaugefilm.co.uk
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carllooper
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Given a film delivered on a reel one can measure the area of the reel occupied by film, and multiply that by a factor for the thickness of the film.
length of film = area of film x film thickness factor
The film thickness factor can be calculated from a reel containing film of known length along with a measurement of the area.
The easiest way to measure the area will be to measure two areas: the area of the core (not occupied by film) and the total area (core plus film) from which one would then subtract the core area from the total area.
The two areas can be calculated from a measurement of the two radii where:
area = pi x radius squared
Given a reel with film of a known length one would divide the known length of the film by the measured area to obtain the film thickness factor. That factor can then be applied to areas measured on reels of unknown length in order to recover the length.
Example.
Measuring the radius of a roll of Super8 film, I find the core radius is 16mm, and the total radius (where the film ends) is 31 mm. The area occupied by the film is therefore:
(pi 31 * 31) - (pi 16 * 16) = 2214 square mm (equal to a square that was 47 x 47 mm in size)
From the known length of the film (15 metres, or 15000 millimetres), the derived film thickness factor becomes:
film thickness factor = length of film / area
= 15000 / 2214
= 6.775
Once we have the film thickness factor we can then use this same figure on reels of unknown length but known area (from measurement of the reel radius). This assumes the film has the same thickness.
By way of example in use of the formula we can apply the formula to the same roll of Super8 film we used to derive the film thickness factor, to re-express the length. The area we measured was 2214 square mm. So to recover the length, we would multiply this measured area occupied by the film (2214), by the derived thickness factor (6.775) to obtain the length of the film:
length = area * thickness factor
= 2214 * 6.775
= 15000 mm
= 15 m
Note that I haven't tested this formula - its just off the top of my head - so you will want to try this formula on two rolls of different, but known lengths, to see if it holds. After which you can then convince yourself (or not) that it will work for reels of unknown length but the same thickness of film.
Note that if I've got the above logic correct (I'm pretty sure I have), and my measurements are not off the mark, then the thickness of the Super8 film I measured, in mm, would be the reciprical of the derived film thickness factor = 1 / 6.775 = 0.1476 mm. The logic may be more understandable if the formula was re-expressed in terms of the actual film thickness, rather than the reciprical of such (the thickness factor), but the intended results (the film length) would be the same either way. So towards understandability we can re-express the above as:
length = area / thickness
Example:
= 2214 / 0.1476
= 15000 mm
= 15 m
where thickness (using a roll of known length and measured area) would be calculated as:
thickness = area / length
Example:
= 2214 / 15000
= 0.1476
C
length of film = area of film x film thickness factor
The film thickness factor can be calculated from a reel containing film of known length along with a measurement of the area.
The easiest way to measure the area will be to measure two areas: the area of the core (not occupied by film) and the total area (core plus film) from which one would then subtract the core area from the total area.
The two areas can be calculated from a measurement of the two radii where:
area = pi x radius squared
Given a reel with film of a known length one would divide the known length of the film by the measured area to obtain the film thickness factor. That factor can then be applied to areas measured on reels of unknown length in order to recover the length.
Example.
Measuring the radius of a roll of Super8 film, I find the core radius is 16mm, and the total radius (where the film ends) is 31 mm. The area occupied by the film is therefore:
(pi 31 * 31) - (pi 16 * 16) = 2214 square mm (equal to a square that was 47 x 47 mm in size)
From the known length of the film (15 metres, or 15000 millimetres), the derived film thickness factor becomes:
film thickness factor = length of film / area
= 15000 / 2214
= 6.775
Once we have the film thickness factor we can then use this same figure on reels of unknown length but known area (from measurement of the reel radius). This assumes the film has the same thickness.
By way of example in use of the formula we can apply the formula to the same roll of Super8 film we used to derive the film thickness factor, to re-express the length. The area we measured was 2214 square mm. So to recover the length, we would multiply this measured area occupied by the film (2214), by the derived thickness factor (6.775) to obtain the length of the film:
length = area * thickness factor
= 2214 * 6.775
= 15000 mm
= 15 m
Note that I haven't tested this formula - its just off the top of my head - so you will want to try this formula on two rolls of different, but known lengths, to see if it holds. After which you can then convince yourself (or not) that it will work for reels of unknown length but the same thickness of film.
Note that if I've got the above logic correct (I'm pretty sure I have), and my measurements are not off the mark, then the thickness of the Super8 film I measured, in mm, would be the reciprical of the derived film thickness factor = 1 / 6.775 = 0.1476 mm. The logic may be more understandable if the formula was re-expressed in terms of the actual film thickness, rather than the reciprical of such (the thickness factor), but the intended results (the film length) would be the same either way. So towards understandability we can re-express the above as:
length = area / thickness
Example:
= 2214 / 0.1476
= 15000 mm
= 15 m
where thickness (using a roll of known length and measured area) would be calculated as:
thickness = area / length
Example:
= 2214 / 15000
= 0.1476
C
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
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john59
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Wow Carl, I now have a banging head ache after trying to read that but im sure you know what it means..........I think what Kevin is asking is if there is a mechanical means of measuring the length of film on any reel of film. If im wrong then I apologize.
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john59
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Kevin, how does a projector measure whats gone through the gate? you see most models with a counter sytem but do they measure in feet and inches? I dont know but im sure someone will on here. just a thought
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MovieStuff
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Well, this really isn't the answer to your question but it's a suggestion. We never charged by the foot but, rather, by the reel. Now, one may argue that simply having an accurate way of measuring the footage is the most precise but it presumes you have the footage in your hands and that only happens after the customer has decided they can afford it and that only happens after they can calculate comfortably how much footage they have. When a potential customer calls about transfers, they have no effective way to calculate the footage they have but they can certainly measure the diameter of a reel accurately and also the number of reels they have. We would have a minimum of eight 50 foot rolls. Beyond that, if they sent in multiple packed 400 foot rolls and there was a variance with some reels more full or less full, we would round down to what we felt was the nearest 50 feet. That way we didn't really cheat ourselves (much) and the customer could never come back later and say they we overcharged. Anyway, it's a fact that you will sometimes be giving them some footage for free but not as much as you lose by having a charge-per-foot system that scares customers away. You only have to lose one customer because they were intimidated by having to calculate their own footage to negate any gains made by a per foot system. In the long run, charging by the reel makes more money because it is more customer friendly.gaugefilm wrote:Hi all,
I'm looking for a fast and if possible cheap system that can quickly give me film lengths on reels. It's just so I can give customers quotes quickly when they send me their films for scanning.
My two cents.....
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aj
- Senior member
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Most/many projector reels have marks on their side to indicate the meters left on the reel.
Operationally you better calculate like Roger suggests.
Handling the reels takes labour too. I.e. many small ones should bring in more than a few long rolls. Although editing/splitting a long roll into chapters along the splices like some some offer as a service may take considerable time too.
Operationally you better calculate like Roger suggests.
Handling the reels takes labour too. I.e. many small ones should bring in more than a few long rolls. Although editing/splitting a long roll into chapters along the splices like some some offer as a service may take considerable time too.
Kind regards,
André
André
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carllooper
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Ha ha. Yes, the method I outlined doesn't really lend itself to costing film transfers on a day to day basis. Roger's point being the salient one - if nothing else you'd need the reel of film, which you'd only have after you've already come to some sort of agreement with the customer. Of course, it might come in handy where the customer might give you more film than they originally stated. Or less for that matter and you're feeling generous. But then again, by how much extra is enough to disturb your sense of economy? Probably not a question of millimetres or fractions thereof. Then again, without a model of such one might not know how much is more (or less) than you bargained for.john59 wrote:Wow Carl, I now have a banging head ache after trying to read that but im sure you know what it means..........I think what Kevin is asking is if there is a mechanical means of measuring the length of film on any reel of film. If im wrong then I apologize.
The mathematics is really just there as a generic concept - one that might be useful in some other situation perhaps. Indeed, working through the problem it provided for me, at least, a solution as to how one might measure the thickness of film in the absence of a microscope and miniature ruler. Indeed it would be more accurate than a microscope and said ruler. And once the formula and measurement method was worked out, it took me literally seconds to determine the length of an arbitrary reel. In other words, it's very efficient. As for film thickness - why you might need to know that can vary. I came across one discussion where it was of interest - in a discussion of the difference between polyester film and triactetate film with respect to Super8 camera gate design. And if it comes to searching the web for some dubious spec on film thickness, vs playing with a roll of actual film, a ruler and a calculator, I'd happily choose the latter.
But it also answers a question I've often asked myself (for entirely different reasons), but had never bothered (or needed) to think through, until someone else had posed it. And today was as good a time as any to think through it.
Note that from the mathematics of such one might conceivably invent some mechanical device for measuring the length of film on reels (or film thickness, given the length). Some sort of caliper specifically designed for such - the purpose of such (if nothing else) to avoid, the next time around, the time and headache one might otherwise associate with the more rudimentary (but fundamental) means by which such a caliper becomes conceivable in the first place.
Here's an interesting question. Imagine a rope tightly tied around the equator of the Earth. Assume the Earth is completely spherical. Now imagine another rope that was exactly 1 foot above the first one, around the entire Earth. How much longer than the first would this second rope be ?
Interestingly you don't need to know the radius (or circumference) of the Earth.
difference = C2 - C1
C1 = 2 pi r1
C2 = 2 pi r2
r2 = r1 + 1
C2 = 2 pi r2
= 2 pi r1 + 1
difference = 2 pi r2 - 2 pi r1
= 2 pi r1 + 1 - 2 pi r1
= 2 pi ( r1 + 1 - r1 )
= 2 pi (1)
= 6.28 feet
Only 6.28 feet longer.
C
Carl Looper
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
http://artistfilmworkshop.org/
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gaugefilm
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:53 pm
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Wow, great response here! Thanks everyone.
Currently the system I have is getting the customer to tell me how many small and big reels of film they have. I also ask them if the reels in question are full, half full... etc. Then I can give them a rough quote, usually pricing a touch on the higher side so there are no big surprises later. If the price is less than originally quote the customer is pretty pleased.
Later the scanner itself will give me an accurate length and I always round down to the nearest 50ft but it's the point between getting the film and scanning that needs to be addressed... That is to say I'm wondering if there is a system (machine) that the film can pass through whilst examining/ cleaning the film between rewinds before the scan. A machine that could do this would be brilliant because whilst examining (film coming off the original spool) you could get a measurement which would inform me of how close or far off my original quotation was. Then when winding it back onto the customers spool the cleaning phase takes place.
As Carl says it's the varying thickness of films that can effect measurements... as does film shrinkage... and tightness! Over the years I've notices film falling above and under the 400ft mark on my reels but after scanning they might actually both be 400ft in length. I assume this is because Rogers Velocity software calculates length on the amount of frames captured (not the physical length of the film). So perhaps a machine that could count 8mm, 9.5, 16mm sprocket holes would be useful? The Muller scanner does this with a laser so the technology it's already in use.
Usually my guestimate quotes are never too far off but it would be nice to have something that could automatically calculate film length whilst examining the film on my bench before committing to a scan. Taking measurements and doing calculations is definitely an option but when you have over 3000ft of film to catalog, splice, examine, scan and log the idea off breaking out the calculator and ruler doesn't sound that attractive. Not that it wouldn't work, it's just I already feel as though there is much work and so little time
Somebody invent something
Currently the system I have is getting the customer to tell me how many small and big reels of film they have. I also ask them if the reels in question are full, half full... etc. Then I can give them a rough quote, usually pricing a touch on the higher side so there are no big surprises later. If the price is less than originally quote the customer is pretty pleased.
Later the scanner itself will give me an accurate length and I always round down to the nearest 50ft but it's the point between getting the film and scanning that needs to be addressed... That is to say I'm wondering if there is a system (machine) that the film can pass through whilst examining/ cleaning the film between rewinds before the scan. A machine that could do this would be brilliant because whilst examining (film coming off the original spool) you could get a measurement which would inform me of how close or far off my original quotation was. Then when winding it back onto the customers spool the cleaning phase takes place.
As Carl says it's the varying thickness of films that can effect measurements... as does film shrinkage... and tightness! Over the years I've notices film falling above and under the 400ft mark on my reels but after scanning they might actually both be 400ft in length. I assume this is because Rogers Velocity software calculates length on the amount of frames captured (not the physical length of the film). So perhaps a machine that could count 8mm, 9.5, 16mm sprocket holes would be useful? The Muller scanner does this with a laser so the technology it's already in use.
Usually my guestimate quotes are never too far off but it would be nice to have something that could automatically calculate film length whilst examining the film on my bench before committing to a scan. Taking measurements and doing calculations is definitely an option but when you have over 3000ft of film to catalog, splice, examine, scan and log the idea off breaking out the calculator and ruler doesn't sound that attractive. Not that it wouldn't work, it's just I already feel as though there is much work and so little time
Somebody invent something
www.gaugefilm.co.uk
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unsanity
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Oh ! You mean the Erno frame counter for Super-8/Single-8 ?
They are fairly common around this neck of the woods, The Netherlands. I think mine cost about 15 - 20 euros.
They probably come from Germany, check out eekbay.
I think I know where there is a small stash of them, email me if desperate.
There is also a 16mm frame counter for €30,- on http://www.marktplaats.nl/ Advertentie No. 837032013.
Hope this helps,
Julian.
They are fairly common around this neck of the woods, The Netherlands. I think mine cost about 15 - 20 euros.
They probably come from Germany, check out eekbay.
I think I know where there is a small stash of them, email me if desperate.
There is also a 16mm frame counter for €30,- on http://www.marktplaats.nl/ Advertentie No. 837032013.
Hope this helps,
Julian.
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gaugefilm
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Hi Julian,
Sorry for the radio silence. That looks pretty perfect. Do you know if it'll do both Super 8 and Double 8?
Best
Kevin
Sorry for the radio silence. That looks pretty perfect. Do you know if it'll do both Super 8 and Double 8?
Best
Kevin
www.gaugefilm.co.uk
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unsanity
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Re: Film Footage Counter
No, the Erno that I have only does super8.
Julian
Julian
Re: Film Footage Counter
HI Kevin got mine from parallaxe in Amsterdam for 5 euros ! frame counter with box a year ago ,send him a email as may also have a16mm frame counter as well ?gaugefilm wrote:Hi Julian,
Sorry for the radio silence. That looks pretty perfect. Do you know if it'll do both Super 8 and Double 8?
Best
Kevin
Really nice Guy to deal with and also very helpful ,Hope this helps ,
Re: Film Footage Counter
Also what about using a 16mm film sync block then do your maths at the end of the count ,As I know he did have some of them in stock ? Also it's a great shop of cinemagic /if you are ever in Amsterdam !nikonr10 wrote:HI Kevin got mine from parallaxe in Amsterdam for 5 euros ! frame counter with box a year ago ,send him a email as may also have a16mm frame counter as well ?gaugefilm wrote:Hi Julian,
Sorry for the radio silence. That looks pretty perfect. Do you know if it'll do both Super 8 and Double 8?
Best
Kevin
Really nice Guy to deal with and also very helpful ,Hope this helps ,
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gaugefilm
- Posts: 131
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Re: Film Footage Counter
Hi guys,
Just an update... I won an Erno 8mm film counter on eBay and it arrived today... to my suprise it does both Double and Super 8! You can check it out on my facebook page.
I'll definitely contact Parallaxe about the 16mm frame counter as well.
Thanks
Kevin
Just an update... I won an Erno 8mm film counter on eBay and it arrived today... to my suprise it does both Double and Super 8! You can check it out on my facebook page.
I'll definitely contact Parallaxe about the 16mm frame counter as well.
Thanks
Kevin
www.gaugefilm.co.uk