US patent# 3687532 re: 50 ft film cartridge for UP8 2.8/3.1

[Nicholas Kovats]

Thanks to Jean-Louis Seguin for unearthing US patent# 3687532 (circa 1970) detailing a 50 foot film cartridge for unslit Double Regular 8 and Double Super 8 film which happen to be the fundamental basis for UltraPan8 2.8 and 3.1 motion picture formats, i.e. http://www.google.com/patents/US3687532

Note that this is not a co-axial design but a supply and take up system in the same plane. No associated camera seems to have been prototyped.

Regards,

Nicholas

[marc]

Interesting, I wonder if they ever produced a prototype.

[jpolzfuss]

Strange! Looks like the cartridge is intended to be filled with approx. 15m of DS8-film and to fit into "modified" Super8-cameras... I wonder if the "Kinag AG" ever modified any camera - especially as their patents looks like they haven't decided whether to fill the cart with D8 or DS8 film...
...however the design of the "non-coax Super8-cart" is clever. It should even work (with minor modifications to the rulers, ...) in an unmodified Super8-camera when filling the cart with Super8-film. So this might be a great idea for any new Super8-cart (especially as this "non-coax version" might be easier to refill).

[Nicholas Kovats]

I did take a quick look at the gate area of my Leicina Special. It's gate is actually modular and held down by two small screws. I will not venture to remove it to examine and check to see if the Super 8 frame area is also modular although I do happen to have the blow up schematics relative to a Leicina parts list. I am guessing that the Lecia M bayonet lens mount would not have to be re-centered if two equal portions on the left and right side of the Super 8 frame were "cut out" proportionately relative to the UP8 3.1 DS8 spec, i.e. 13.00mm x 4.22mm.

But if I remember correctly Leitz inserted a clear optical flat between mount and frame area. Which raises some interesting questions as to which Super 8 cameras in general have the "least" intricate frame gate areas for potential modification. I wonder if there are some potential load bearing concerns with the typical Super 8 claw pulling Double Super 8 film as opposed to single strand Super 8 film past the gate?

This is a potential fascinating project to increase UP8 uptake through lighter weight Super 8 "electronic" cameras although I am concerned about the current longevity of Super 8 cameras in general. What examples are there of all metal S8 camera construction? Other than the Leicina Special and VIC SP-1. The VIC SP-1 is not suitable due to it's rather complicated single strand Super 8 threading. How heavy is the Canon Scoopic DS8 camera relative to the Leicina Special?

[aj]

There are plenty plastic parts on a Leicina special.
The gate is made of some magic artificial fibre, according to some

I would expect a Nikon R10/R8 to be as much metal as the Leicina special.
Particularly on the driveworks and shutter.

Still, the Leicinas have better control facilities when using a ST-1 controller.
Or a Arduino...

[bolextech]

Guys, I don't want to be the "Debbie Downer" but I can't see any cartridge super8 camera being adaptable to shoot UP8 without a major redesign. Remember, the optics have to cover a field as wide as 16mm for UP8 2.8 and as wide as super16 for UP8 3.1.

I don't think this prototype cartridge was meant to be a direct replacement of the conventional super8 cartridge. It simply forms the basis for a proposed camera system that never saw the light of day.

Jean-Louis

[aj]

But if I remember correctly Leitz inserted a clear optical flat between mount and frame area. Which raises some interesting questions as to which Super 8 cameras in general have the "least" intricate frame gate areas for potential modification. I wonder if there are some potential load bearing concerns with the typical Super 8 claw pulling Double Super 8 film as opposed to single strand Super 8 film past the gate?

How could a standard S8 camera possibly be made to hold and transport DS8?

You might want to consider a ELMO C300 Filmatic with the DS8 magazine. It certainly transports it well. You would only have to find a way to expand the gate. Asymetric. And the C300 has an ancient fixed lens which likely will not expose your wide format evenly.

As hardly any film gets projected these days you might just as well shoot wide on a standaard Super-16 and mask the result in teleciné. But you already thought of that.

[granfer]

"As hardly any film gets projected these days you might just as well shoot wide on a standard Super-16 and mask the result in teleciné. But you already thought of that."

Or even get the same end result by taking a perfectly standard HD Video camera, fit a Magnarama (1.75:1) Anamorphic attachment and shoot direct in 3.1111:1 without the expense of... 1. Camera modification 2. Film 3. Processing. 4. Scanning.

Or have I (heaven forbid!) just come up with a totally new Video format ?

[aj]

People want a film look by using film. For the time being.
Most don't give a sheit about projecting.

So as much as you get a S8 look by using a S8 focal length and just use the center S8 frame of every 16mm frame you could easily become this Ultrapan 8 through the same route.

And this is not an odd idea. I have noticed it mentioned here and elsewhere by the guys with decades of experience.

BTW if you need to project you could use a 16mm projector and fix it with a frame of your choice. Easy as pie.

Good luck.