telecine to digital to dvd to tv 101

[ericMartinJarvies]

what is the highest possible resolution from a telecine transfer? which is to say, is it possible to have each frame of video turned into a high res TGA or TIF file, in sequencial order?

for example, when i pop a dvd into my player/recorder, and view it using a regular television with s-video input from dvd player, what am i seeing on my television in terms of line quality and what pixal quality is the actual dvd sending via s-video? now then, what if i use the 3 composit out cables from my dvd player/recorder and plug it into my hd widescreen television? how many pixals does the hd tv display(not the tele's actual specs, but the signal from the dvd)?

in other words, when mastering a dvd, what is the highest picture quality one is able to record/master onto the dvd disk/technology itself? which then leads to the question; what is the highest resolution possible for super8 film?

why hasn't anyone/anycompany created a film neg/pos scanner that allows rolls of 8/16/35mm to be fed through and scanned at super high resolutions(or any resoultion for that matter) one frame at a time? this sure would make life easier ... imagine being able to take your processed film, load it onto a spool arm, enter the film itself into an 8mm scanning carterage that holds x,y postion(registration), and then attaches to a film strip connected to the feed/take-up spool, and with a press of a button it stars a scanning process, one frame at a time. you cna simply walk away from it and in a matter of hours or days, come back to it and voila! high res, single frame images named in sequencial order, ready to be edited on your nle. is it just me, or should this type of scanner already exist? if so, i have not been able to find it or one like it

ok, thanks for your detailed and specific replies to this thread.

[teadub]

I'll try and field a few of these questions EMJ.

As far as DVD resoulution, theoretically, you have 500i (the "i" is for interlaced) horizontal lines if you have a composite or s-video hook up. Now if you have a progressive scan dvd player and a HDTV with componant video hook ups you have 480p horizantal lines (the p is for progressive).

Interlaced displays odd lines on one field and then even lines on the second field. Making a total of 2 fields per 1 frame. Now progressive displays lines in order; 1 , 2 , 3, 4 etc... all on the same frame.

Also new sony tv's have a built in 3:2 pulldown ( i dont really know how it works) and you are supposed to get the same results as a progressive scan dvd with the cheap ones. (like my sampo 620 )

So the progressive image is obviously more natural looking, and it reduces horizontal banding and other prolems associated with interlaced video

Now as far as resolution on your trasfer is conserned, it all depends on how you do the telecine. DV is 720x480 4:1:1 compressed 5:1, beta SP has somewhere around 400 horizantal lines 4:2:2 uncompressed. it varies from format to format. And as far as a scanner. MoveStuff's workprinter seems to be a close alternative to the negative scanner you spoke of.

BTW this is all NTSC information. Hope this helps out.

[crimsonson]

SP has somewhere around 400 horizantal lines 4:2:2 uncompressed

Slight correction. BetaSP is not 4:2:2 since its an analog format. 4:2:2/4:1:1/4:4:4/etc only applies to digital format like DV, MJPEG, MPEG, etc. For analog, ,it is measured in bandwidth. BetaSP is about equal with DV in regards to color info.

The BetaSP 4:2:2 association probably came about since those who used BetaSP more than likely used an NLE system that was MJPEG 4:2:2 like Avid Media Composer or Symphony.

[teadub]

Slight correction. BetaSP is not 4:2:2 since its an analog format. 4:2:2/4:1:1/4:4:4/etc only applies to digital format like DV, MJPEG, MPEG, etc. For analog, ,it is measured in bandwidth. BetaSP is about equal with DV in regards to color info.

The BetaSP 4:2:2 association probably came about since those who used BetaSP more than likely used an NLE system that was MJPEG 4:2:2 like Avid Media Composer or Symphony.

Your totally right Crimson. Beta is analogue (stupid me, I even wrote uncompressed), and you are right about me thinking 4:2:2 because of my work with Avid Media Composer back in '98. hehe good call

[ericMartinJarvies]

thanks for your help guys ... i am learning tons this week. yummy. ok, what is the resolutiuon of digibeta?

what would be the best way to digest digibeta onto my mac for editing in final cut pro?

what would be the best way to digest nagra audio recordings onto my mac for editing in the latest sound software(what is the best sound editing software that allows one to adjust up/down the speed of the audio to match the 29.97 differance that the telecine records the film to tape?)?

i have a g4 mac with final cut, media cleaner, photoshop, after effects, and some other apps(i purchased thois laptop 2 years ago when they first cmae out and have never used it ...other then wathcing dvd's on it when my little panasonic broke ...whata waste), is this system capable of editing high end full res files from the digibeta to computer transfer?

[teadub]

what would be the best way to digest digibeta onto my mac for editing in final cut pro?

You could telecine to digibeta, but it may be a bit of an overkill. Don't get me wrong I am sure the results would be beautiful, but when you go to digibeta the prices skyrocket.

Like Crison says, Beta SP handles H. Res and colors similar to DV. And since you are recording MOS you can avoid pricey DV like DVCam and DVCPro and get a normal Mini DV transfer. The the main difference is you chromance and luminance levels will be out of the broadcast legal limits. Which should not be a problem since you are ending on DVD and don't plan on broadcasting. And even if you do you can resolve those issues fairly painlessly in post.

what would be the best way to digest nagra audio recordings onto my mac for editing in the latest sound software(what is the best sound editing software that allows one to adjust up/down the speed of the audio to match the 29.97 differance that the telecine records the film to tape?)?

If you are going to use the Nagra I would get some sort of beakout box with XLR inputs. Like the ones offered from Aurora or Pro Tools. And as far as software, Pro Tools is the way to go. Even the free "Light" eddition is a great application. However, other threads in the forum offer cheaper alternatives like the Marantz MiniDisc or tape recorders with XLR's in.

i have a g4 mac with final cut, media cleaner, photoshop, after effects, and some other apps(i purchased thois laptop 2 years ago when they first cmae out and have never used it ...other then wathcing dvd's on it when my little panasonic broke ...whata waste), is this system capable of editing high end full res files from the digibeta to computer transfer?

Sounds like a nice system. If it is over 500Mhz with a lot of RAM and Drive space you shold be able to do pretty much anything you want (within reason).

[ericMartinJarvies]

thanks for your help! ok, dvd is indeed my final product, but that is not to say it wont make it onto discovery health, or another cable channel. so, i want to make certain my final output is as high quality as possible. so i have every intention of telecine'ing my film to digibeta always. i want to make sure my product looks good on all the high end tv's being sold today(read hdtv).

but, correct me if i'm wrong here ... dv to dvd is not as good as digibeta to dvd? if i capture my film footage on a digibeta tape using an SDI input/capture card, edit my program, and output it to dvd, the quality will be better then if i captured my film footage from a dv tape ... correct?

[teadub]

but, correct me if i'm wrong here ... dv to dvd is not as good as digibeta to dvd? if i capture my film footage on a digibeta tape using an SDI input/capture card, edit my program, and output it to dvd, the quality will be better then if i captured my film footage from a dv tape ... correct?

You are absolutely correct. DigiBeta is much better. All forms of Beta are better than DV (from a broadcast point of view that is, one could argue DVCPro better than BetaSP, but we won't worry about that). I don't know if it is available in your area, but if you want to broadcast HD have you thought of transfering to Sony HDCam. Then you would be editing in a format native to HDTV.

Be careful about aspect ratios though. HDTV is 16:9 native and Super 8 is 4:3, so you will want to use a video anamorphic adapter ("A" lens) like the ones sold by Century, and Optex so you don't have to crop your image. (if you use a 8mm/16mm "A" lens your aspect ratio will still be screwed up (2:1 , 2.25:1 or 2.66:1 instead of 1.77:1) and cropping will still occur.

[ericMartinJarvies]

i have purchased the century 16x9 and have also purchased some older kowa anamorhpic lenses. the only thing i will have problems with are shots made with my nikkor 8mm, pacific optical 3.45mm, angenieux 5.9mm, century 3.5mm and century 5.7mm wide angle lenses << what does one do with these types of lenses for 16x9

[teadub]

i have purchased the century 16x9 and have also purchased some older kowa anamorhpic lenses. the only thing i will have problems with are shots made with my nikkor 8mm, pacific optical 3.45mm, angenieux 5.9mm, century 3.5mm and century 5.7mm wide angle lenses << what does one do with these types of lenses for 16x9

Sounds like you bought a bunch super wide and fish eye c-mount lenses? Are you going to be using a beaulieu? It depends on the threading on all the lenses, what you will be able to do. The kowa lenses are going to be too wide for what you want to do (most likely they a 2x = 2.66:1). Does the Century 16x9 adapter fit any of those lenses? If not, can you step-up/down to make it fit. If not, you will be limited in the lens you will be able to use. Unless there is a C-mount anamorphic barrel that mounts to the camera in front of the lens. Does anyone know about one of these (in any aspect ratio)

[ericMartinJarvies]

the 16x9 is bayonet mount. however, for it to work on all of my lenses i will have to fork out some money for some special adapters to be made ... and rest assured you will see them fo sale on ebay as i will have to make a minimum of 10 each ... but this should help other people avoid the same problems i am having.

also, i would prefer to avoid purchasing a video capture card for the digibata tapes. if possible, i would like to have a third party tranfer and place on hard drives for me. if this is possible, what type of hard drives should i purchase so that i cna simply take them into one of these digital transfer houses, plug in, and leave with all my footage on my hard drives? thanks for your help by the way.

oh, yes ... i am using beaulieu 4008ZM/ZMII/ZMIV cameras. i purchased 6 of them and they are currently being outfitted with crystal syncs as well as being fully serviced and updated with direct power supply plugs and battery packs. i will be selling 4 of these once i have shot the scenes that require the multiple cameras ... i will sell them for the money i have invested into them ... or $1000.00, and this will include limited warranty coverage. fyi.

[teadub]

the 16x9 is bayonet mount. however, for it to work on all of my lenses i will have to fork out some money for some special adapters to be made

This is correct

also, i would prefer to avoid purchasing a video capture card for the digibata tapes. if possible, i would like to have a third party tranfer and place on hard drives for me. if this is possible, what type of hard drives should i purchase so that i cna simply take them into one of these digital transfer houses, plug in, and leave with all my footage on my hard drives? thanks for your help by the way.

If you want to broadcast HiDef I would consentrate on HDCam instead of DigiBeta. Try and find a lab that would transfer the files at 1920 x 1080. That is the resolution Sony HDCam's codec is at its highest setting. That will broadcast full 1080i HD. Also don't forget, if they use that codec on your files you will need it on your computer to edit it. You will need very fast drives with as much cache as possible. Since you have a laptop firewire drives may be your only solution. I'm not sure if they will be fast enough though. I think most consumer ones are 7200rpm with seek times of around 7 or 8ms

[ericMartinJarvies]

thanks teatub. alright, all i want to do is have my film transfered to my computer in the highest possible resoultion, so that i can edit my final product and have the option to output in whatever format is required, be it dvd, hdtv, or television broadcast (and maybe even onto a larger fomat film like 16 or 35mm for entrance into various film festivals ... it culd happen, wink wink).