To Whom It May Concern: The Mayhem Of 10bit DIY Conversion

[S8 Booster]

this is absolutely no proof on anything but an observation on my machinery

the reason for so may be purely technical and intermediate so the end results may be identical. but, at this state theres a difference.

click link below sample images for full size.

info for: 10bit 4:2:2 uncompressed right

http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/gal ... lde_14.png

standard PAL DV format left - 10bit 4:2:2 uncompressed right

http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/gal ... 13_001.png


different PAL DV format setting - 10bit 4:2:2 uncompressed right

http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/gal ... lde_15.png

does the right 10 bit version look better on your computers as well?
it does on mine.
the shown frames are exactly the same.

s8hôôt

[Justin Lovell]

since when has help been spelt with a J? (hjelp) hehe

Big difference. Did you use the same camera? Inputting through a decklink or converting to firewire? Could you explain the camera's connection to the computer?

Have you tried down converting the 10bit down to a DV codec and seeing if the image is sharper than the original DV file? (maybe the computer's codecs render to DV better than the camera's DV codec).

Are you able to compare and 8bit signal to a 10bit?

thanks for posting!

[Carlos 8mm]

Great improvement!

Can you post the original and the 10 bit converted frame (full size)?

[Evan Kubota]

Yeah, where was the 10 bit sourced from?

[S8 Booster]

since when has help been spelt with a J? (hjelp) hehe

Big difference. Did you use the same camera? Inputting through a decklink or converting to firewire? Could you explain the camera's connection to the computer?

Have you tried down converting the 10bit down to a DV codec and seeing if the image is sharper than the original DV file? (maybe the computer's codecs render to DV better than the camera's DV codec).

Are you able to compare and 8bit signal to a 10bit?

thanks for posting!

since when has help been spelt with a J? (hjelp) hehe

since doomesday in vikingia ;-)

Big difference. Did you use the same camera? Inputting through a decklink or converting to firewire? Could you explain the camera's connection to the computer?!

everything is the same.
in fact ecactly the same original clip exported from iMovie.
filmed off a screen where the original was projected at 16 2/3 fps onto capturing on the run with a consumer Sony PC120 25 FPS PA onto a MiniDV tape.

next it was imported to my MAC Powerbook G4 iMovie (HD but not set up to HD for this project) via a standard built in FW400 port.
from iMovie I exported it by default QT settings as per posted images.
The left clips are PAL DV and the right clip is 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed.

Have you tried down converting the 10bit down to a DV codec and seeing if the image is sharper than the original DV file? (maybe the computer's codecs render to DV better than the camera's DV codec).

no, i havent but i can do it for a comparisation.

Are you able to compare and 8bit signal to a 10bit?

thanks for posting!

yes, there is an option for 8bit uncompressed 4:2:2 there.
will make some samples for compare later.

s8hôôt

[S8 Booster]

Great improvement!

Can you post the original and the 10 bit converted frame (full size)?

ill see what i can to - hope the setttings dont get messed with.

s8hôôt

[Evan Kubota]

"filmed off a screen where the original was projected at 16 2/3 fps onto capturing on the run with a consumer Sony PC120 25 FPS PA onto a MiniDV tape.

next it was imported to my MAC Powerbook G4 iMovie (HD but not set up to HD for this project) via a standard built in FW400 port.
from iMovie I exported it by default QT settings as per posted images.
The left clips are PAL DV and the right clip is 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed."

So... you imported it as standard PAL DV, then exported as 10 bit 4:2:2 (what codec?) versus standard PAL DV again? It already passed through DV compression once... to make it an apples to apples comparison you need to turn on the 'high quality' mode in QuickTime Player, unless you did this already.

[S8 Booster]

Yeah, where was the 10 bit sourced from?

these are the options for the clip export. the original clip in iMovie is standard MiniDv PAL 25.

http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/gal ... lde_16.png

the initial images are screen captures and should reveal the real differences.

s8hôôt

[mathis]

If I understood you right then you captured with your Mini-DV camera on MiniDV tape right? And then you imported the DV stream and converted it to uncompressed, right?

If that´s the case there´s something really wrong with your setup. The uncompressed video cannot be better than its source, the DV file.

[mathis]

to make it an apples to apples comparison you need to turn on the 'high quality' mode in QuickTime Player, unless you did this already.

Ah, that´s a good one. It only shows one field otherwise, right? That would make sense.
The DV version looks too bad for its possibilities anyway.

[christoph]

sorry to ruin your party, but your comparison is seriously flawed :(
(i wish it was so easy to improve the footage)

quicktime displays the the DV codec only at reduced quality for various reasons (some of them are relly annoying), if you really want to compare the two you have to do so in FCP. alternatively, you can open the movie properties (apple-J shortcut) and go to the video track and enable the high quality checkbox.

another thing that is weird is that the uncompressed clip is the wrong size, and the wrong frame rate, which is weird and some conversion has been going on.

all that said, the point is that you dont really gain anything by exporting to uncompressed if the original footage was shot on DV. the only reason to export as 4:2:2 10bit uncompressed is if you want to take it to a post house to play to digibeta.. or if you are doing some multi generation effect work and have the disk space.

++ christoph ++

[S8 Booster]

you are probably right. i will verify it tomorrow.
it stiil seems like there is still some gain over std dv. ill explain tomorrow.
the .dv clip was set to PAL dv highest quailty when exported from imovie so i may have missed the fact that QTP dispayes it at half res unless checked for hq. the 10 bit file is also refered to as half res in the settings. at export.

those unfamiliar sizes n frame rates appeared in the expert settings menus even checked as same as original in both cases.
i will try to set it manually for further trials.

ive re-named the title as see.

s8hôôt

[S8 Booster]

now, entering the domain of dv resolution.

both QT clips set to high quality before capturing these details:

A


B


C


D



next i think i will covert the clip to a 10 bit uncompressed HDV and if that aint enough i can fire up my old ap40 and maxe a 4000 x 3000 pixel version tweaked to 48 bit levels ;-)


s8hôôt

[mattias]

Booster, booster, booster, we've been *over* this already *years* ago. Remember your pro8 boat clips? /matt

[S8 Booster]

no problem matt but there was a new default 1 click in the export function for the QT which says "DV høyeste kvalitet" which i assumed would also play it back at best quality in QTP without thinking more about it. high quality being exactly that.

sorry i missed that.

anyway as you may see from the latest deails i posted there looks as if the 10 bit conversion actually visualise certain details better than the standard dv post set to hq - at least on my machinery.

however, the "benefit" it appeared to give was reduced from 90 to 10? % or so which if half correct will hurt dv file size wise.

no doubt you, Evan and Cristoph are right and i was wrong but there is a small benefit - isnt it?

s8hÔÔt