getting on your super 8 nerves

[paul]

just curious what this 24 p camera will do to you, since it seems to be quite promissing.

Paul :oops:

P.S.

camera will cost 3.500 USd

[crimsonson]

I'm due for a new DV cam. The price is right for me.
I have no plans to get rid of my Leicina Special (unless for a trade). I would probably get a better 16mm cam before I get another Super 8 camera. Though I still have th Jones for the Canon 1014 XL-S.

[MovieStuff]

I don't think anyone can really answer this poll in absolutes without seeing the results of the new 24P miniDV. I can't tell you the number of people that told me "I don't see how your WorkPrinter can provide a professional quality transfer"....until they saw a sample transfer. Likewise, I've run into countless 16mm people that swore they'd never use super 8 for anything.....until they saw a good transfer on video. Likewise, I know die hard BetaSP users that deemed miniDV to be totally unfit for man or beast....until they actually shot something with it on a decent miniDV camera. I think people will have to see this stuff for them to believe anything about it.

Roger

[Cranium]

Can anybody tell me what this thing actually puts on tape?
My guess from the bajillion other speculations I've seen (Panasonic isn't all to clear about it) is some sort of 24/29.97 pulled-down NTSC. Which would kinda suck, if you ask me.
Or is it a "slow" PAL?
Whatevr... I don't have $3500 right now anyway. I could custom order two feature's worth of stock from Kodak for that $$...
And by the time I'm done with pre, production, and post on those two features, everything will be HD.
Actually, at the rate I work, everything will be holograms by the time I finished two features...

[crimsonson]

Can anybody tell me what this thing actually puts on tape?
My guess from the bajillion other speculations I've seen (Panasonic isn't all to clear about it) is some sort of 24/29.97 pulled-down NTSC. Which would kinda suck, if you ask me.
Or is it a "slow" PAL?

Yes - it will do an intenal pulldown to conform with DV specs of 29.97. However, it will flag the original 24 fps (like the way DV cams flag video streams if they are 16:9). So, 24p NLE systems can ignore the repeat frames and just capture the original 24. But remember, the street date is September so the final spec can change - though at this this time I doubt it can change that drastic - unless the push the date back.

[MovieStuff]

Can anybody tell me what this thing actually puts on tape?
My guess from the bajillion other speculations I've seen (Panasonic isn't all to clear about it) is some sort of 24/29.97 pulled-down NTSC. Which would kinda suck, if you ask me.

If you transferred your 24fps super 8 footage to video one frame at a time and then applied a 3:2 pulldown using Aftereffects, that would stretch the 24 super 8 frames across the 30 video frames by adding 6 artificial frame (effectively doubling every fourth frame using a split field combination of the 4th and 5th frame). This is how footage transferred on the WorkPrinter would work and this is how the Rank works. So there are 24 original frames stretched out to 30 frames. That is what makes film transferred to video look like film, from a motion characteristic standpoint.

The miniDV 24P ALSO shoots 24 original frames per second and "stretches" those frames across a 30fps time base, exactly the same as the Rank would, by effectively doubling every fourth frame as described above with a split field combination. Therefore, the end result is that the same motion and the same number of frames end up displayed on regular video EACTLY the same as if it had come from a Rank transfer....minus the Rank and minus the film. To me, that hardly sucks as it is like shooting with a Rank out in the field! You can't ask for fewer generations than that.

Roger

[Cranium]

Right, it doesn't suck too much if what Crimsonson said is true.
It's just a drag they couldn't spread the 24P into the full DV bandwidth for higher res somehow...

[paul]

moviestuff wrote:

I don't think anyone can really answer this poll in absolutes without seeing the results of the new 24P miniDV.

I agree with that. I was just looking for an indication. I think this camera does trouble some peoples minds, at least it does mine (and yours, if I'm correct). I was just wondering how it affects peoples minds in this group in general. Of course the critics and tests seen after it gets on the market will affect opinions again. But the promis of it's quality affects them as well.

Video is often about hypes, and the reality is often less than the hype. But is does get on my nerves none the less.

Paul

[S8 Booster]

Have been doing DV edits / Video filming since 1994 with the MAC and I am not ever going to buy or use DV 24P until it doubles in quality from now.

It just isn´t good enough.

Have to add that my experience is entirely based on PAL 25 fps stuff that appears to considerably superior t the 29.x fps NTSC world.

The DV computer edit stuff is truly a dream to work with but having used it since 1994 I am quite fed up (bored by working with it) and have gone back to S8 film, reversal for projection for my homemovies.

That is the magic thecurrent videosystems never can offer in the same manner.

Apparently many other people around (Check newsgroups) start to feel the same way and turn back to film. This is not nostalgy, only realisation of how unique the film stuff really is.

The video is and will allways be a flat dead looking movie medium despite how film-like it is promoted as.

Recently here in Scandinavia there has been a few Professional TV productions aired that obviously is made by 24P or 24P like systems. Frame jittering yes, Colours, well? different but not filmlike, general impression: Something in between "flat" video and film.

So what´s the point of flushing big bucks on 24P DV now? It will not survive the S8 anyway.

There is so long way to go before it going to be acceptable and the 24P is obviously only a madium stage too.

I believe that in some years we may see vectorized pixel scan & storage. Each pixel stored separately with a vector that can be split into x-y-z axis vectors for manipulation. The frame scan is a ghost from the past. When that is dumped the DV may move ahead.

There must me so much more to gain. If vectorized single pixel scans (not frame scans) are used at a scan rate of 100 or 1000/s and each pixel stored separately the data storage will not be limited to any FPS/frame/field. This may only be needed to be decided at the playback.

And, when Opticom/Intel/Dell get their new data storage systems on track it will all be stored in extreme high capacity chips, no disk or tape and have basically no limit on speed or data capacity, thus maybee not the same need for data compression. These chips are developed on molecule level and it is now said to be possible to store 3 full size DVD movies on chips inside a cellular phone. Within short you can store all movies you ever made inside you Video cam at the same time if you want.

IBM is said to work on a similar but even more advanced system on atoms level.

WIll be OK to dump hard drives forever? This is one result.

The only fair reason to buy DV / 24P now is to put more money in the hands of the developers so they can ditch the 24P asap to move ahead.

Subject: 16 mm -out of business?
From: bo@visicon.se (Bo Wrangborg)
Newsgroups: alt.movies.cinematography.super8
Organization: Telia Internet
Date: May 20 2002 00:48:18
User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000


Hallo fellow moviemakers,

I'm 55 + now.........I left filmproducing to educate and make another
career - and managed.

Could not let that stop so I went still photographing large format instead
while working partly.

Now I have reached a limit - I didn't know what was missing - today I know -
Sound - moveable pictures - light - manus - thrill - costs (OK!) -
planning -manus - Ehhh You know what I mean???
A story to tell! That's it!

I kept my gear - a fullblown Arrieflex - Nagra-sound - tripoids -
lamps -----> everything to the old make-up boxes.
What is missing - people - rawfilm - and new accumulators. A room is still
full of it that gear!

I know my old - some of them now famous - friends - but they are far out
there - and I became an M.Sc Engineering -
and an heavy large format photographer amateuer.....won prices......

For some half a year I feel I did wrong - I should have joined the
team...now split...some out of busines some as said
famous!

Dare I ask - is my old gear (twenty years ago - then State of the Art) -
useble????? Just hobby or collectors loving it??
I'm have a feeling - an expensive feeling - that is to go for film - manus -
music - sleepless nights again -STORIES TO GIVE!.
Cuting negfilm, arrange a team - why ...... now I feel I have something to
give!

Is my old gear worth anything - shall I sell it and go super-duper betacam -
or is 16 mm still out there..........
I would love to take it up again - it was my business 20-25 years ago.

I never looked back.........NOW I am?

I have had horse-blinkers, to do my duty as an good consultant - now I can
afford (I think - with the usual persuation,
selling ideas - making people work - making people think - giving visions --
ehhhh- you know for certain that hard job
as well....)

I have thousends of ideas what to do - but about six to start with.......
Some shoorties some longies - from 12 minutes to at least an hour...

Is my gear - museum???
Is my thinking museum???
Is my visions museum????

Or is 16 mm soundmovies still going strong out there - and if - what
legue -and for what purpose!
Those days we made monoy out of it as well! But I went for the more secure
path!

If going "super-duper" digital - betacam - show me some places on the net?
(that's only for TV-legue i think....) Tranformation 16 mm to digital is out
of question:
It's either - or and switch on!

As I find no discussion groups for 16 mm - I prosume my gear is dead - or to
expensive to use?

Just some hint's please??

Please try to understand my Swinglish....hmmm... Swedish - English that is!

Regards
Bo Wrangborg
Made in Sweden

[Guest]

Not anything new for those who like projected film - the bottleneck of (PAL) video is not the framerate, its the overall contrast and resolution performance and the sterile cold look when put thru a LCD beamer.
Pedro

[S8 Booster]

Not anything new for those who like projected film - the bottleneck of (PAL) video is not the framerate, its the overall contrast and resolution performance and the sterile cold look when put thru a LCD beamer.
Pedro

The funny thing is when you transfer the S8 to DV for LCD projection the colours are 3 times better than the MiniDV high end cam projection.

[crimsonson]

Not anything new for those who like projected film - the bottleneck of (PAL) video is not the framerate, its the overall contrast and resolution performance and the sterile cold look when put thru a LCD beamer.
Pedro

The funny thing is when you transfer the S8 to DV for LCD projection the colours are 3 times better than the MiniDV high end cam projection.

Can you explain this?

How? I would really like to know how this is possible since you cannot put more information on video - is physcally limited by the format. Yes the motion and things like grain is preserved somewhat. But things like contrast, color and brightness are all format dependent. I would really like to know how you come to this conclusion.

And please dont say "Because it just" or "Its obvious and you can see it"
Things like this just add to the perception that filmlovers like us are just plain delussional.

[S8 Booster!]

Crimsonson.

Made a direct comppristaion (LCD projecting) with many amateur/semi film people attended, both DV and S8 buffs.

The DV guys stunned and the S8 guys cheered.

Later this summer I will post direct comparisation with S8 DV vs DV DV here but it is VERY visual while projecting by a LCD projector because the colours are not reproduced optimally in the first place.

This is not a "biased" statement. Whether it is 2.5 or 3.5 times better I can´t tell for sure but there are a vast difference. It is not doubt that he Mini DV look pc of sh*t compared directly on the screen.

RGDS

[jchanbr]

I think that all depends on the final product.
If is a 35mm print I prefer to shoot in HD or film (S8,16mm,35mm).
If is a video the only 24p advantage is to make copies easily in any system format (ntsc/pal) and your edit house must have to be compatible with that new technology.
So I think the normal ntsc/pal DV will be the sufficient.
There's no reason to shoot in DV 24p if the final product is 35mm print, the cost are almost the same to make the blow-up. And the quality is the same DV video that we know anyway. Just make a research in this area.

Well, I'll continue to shoot my super8 films to project in my house, to make 35mm prints and to transfer to video.
And my ntsc television can't show my new DV 24p video shooting

jchanbr

[Guest]

If is a video the only 24p advantage is to make copies easily in any system format (ntsc/pal) and your edit house must have to be compatible with that new technology.

And my ntsc television can't show my new DV 24p video shooting

Not quite correct. The whole beauty of the 24P miniDV is that it works on a standard 30fps timebase, just like 24fps film transferred to video. See my explanation above of how the Panasonic 24P works.

Roger