Different Formats...

[BN]

Hi, I'm new to this forum, just have a few questions. I am planning on writing and shooting a short film sometime in the near future, and I've been thinking about the different formats I could shoot in. I've considered video, and it would be by far the easiest and cheapest format, but I'm also considering film. I was thinking about 16mm film (is that considered small guage?) I was wondering if anyone had experience or knew about telecine (sp.?) 16mm to video. Is that expensive, compared to getting the film printed, editing, then sending that back to get it finished? And how is the image quality of something like that? I'm very new to all this, I'm just trying to learn more about the options. I thought that if I could shoot in 16mm and then get it on Video, the editing would be much easier (using final cut pro), as would actually showing the film (projecting a DVD). I dont know even roughly the price range of shooting 16mm though. I've heard that there are many used 16mm cameras floating around that aren't super expensive. Also, it seems a lot of this forum is dedicated to 8mm. Has that ever been used for a dramatic film? The only problem I can think of is syncing sound somehow, but I do have my grandfather's old bolex 8mm... I don't think it would pass for shooting a film though... Anyway, any suggestions, ideas, websites,etc that might point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Brady

[christoph]

from your questions it seems to me that you need to do quite a bit more research before you can takle a project on 16mm. yes there are a lot of cheap 16mm cameras but they are very noisy and not accutate in speed (crystal sync).. also 16mm film and processing is quite expensive, as is telecine (or a workprint). search the web for a while and consider how you want to work, video is not just different from fim in terms of look and price, but also in terms of how you shoot.
then come back with more specific questions, be it super8 or 16 ;)

a 15min short on super16 with release print on 35mm will be at about 5000-15000 euro (if everybody works for free).

++ christoph ++

[Evan Kubota]

If it helps, my brother shoots on 16mm for class. A 100' reel, including color negative film, processing, and transfer to miniDV, costs around $90. IIRC that's 2 minutes 45 seconds. I don't know how long your short is, but even with a 3:1 ratio for a 10 minute short you're looking at nearly $800 in film and lab fees. Super 8 is less than half that.

[film_idaho]

I started into film by looking into 16mm but then I realized you have to buy a camera, the film, the processing, the prep, the transfer to video . In the end you’d be better off with smaller film Super 8. You could buy a good camera for about $300.00 (US dollars) and buy some film from Kodak for dirt cheap [1-800-621-FILM (3456)] look into Black & White film. In the end you could get for feet wet but still have some money !

-Alex Mason (teenage Super 8 junkie)

[BN]

Thanks for the replies, I need to do more research on the prices I guess. to shoot in 8mm i would think would be more difficult as they've stopped producing the film, or do they still make it? As for buying an 8mm camera, do they make models that can sync sound? I guess I was under the impression that a 16mm camera with a crystal motor could be bought for under 4000$, but I guess it may be more expensive. Thanks for the figures on the developing costs, and camera noise was another thing I wasnt considering. I know some cameras have a "blimp" to cut out camera sound though. Going to a 35mm print is definately not what I had in mind as that is really expensive, but 90$ for 2.5 min for digital seems more feasible....
Thanks for the advice... I'll be back
Brady

[tlatosmd]

If you plan on transferring 16mm and then project it from a DVD, research on the differences between a transfer directly to NTSC, or one to HD to edit then convert to NTSC after editing. Might be a better choise as for image quality. Just saying to be on the safe side, if you talk about transfer to video, I hope you don't mean VHS.

If you say you have an 8mm Bolex, you gotta specify which 8mm format actually. There are 4 different versions (Regular8 aka Double8, Super8, Double Super8, and Single8), as much as I know Bolex was involved with the first three, and those four aren't compatbile if you buy film for one and have a cam, projector, or telecining unit for another (though telecining and projection is the same for Super8, Double Super8, and Single8).

In the US, film for Super8 is available mainly from Kodak (recommended) and Pro8mm, newly manufactured (however, there'll probably be a color reversal shortage in August for about a month between discontinuing K40 and introducing E64, maybe some places might still hold some Ektachrome 7240 VNF during that time, and of course there's always b/w and negatives).

There has been a number of full-length features on Super8, all over the world. Sleep always is one of those that got theatrical releases (it was shot in Super Duper8, a hardware modification that gives you widescreen), and its director is here on this forum. Others here will be able to tell you about more Super8 feature films.

It's a pity this site's ftp is currently down, otherwise we could easily show you what Super8 is able to give. For example, it has a resolution that's HD-compatible, so it's better than DV, be it in NTSC or PAL. Of course, the results, as in any business or craft, depend heavily on the hardware you use and those people operating said hardware.

Anyway, others will also be able to give you links to good transfers of Super8 footage. For example, I remember a b/w music video of a band performing in studio that has been posted here a few times, a Frenchman (also a member of this forum) whose Super8 music video is currently on rotation on MTV2, or a trailer we've been linked to of a stuntman rehearsing in a park to impress the ladies.

[BN]

Thanks tlatosmd,
I was thinking about transfering to HD for editing. As for my Bolex, I just threw that out there. It's really old, and it wouldn't be much help for shooting anythingwith sound. It's called "revere 40". I didn't know there were different kinds of 8mm film that were incompatable. I also didn't know that 8mm was used for anything but home movies. If anyone could give me links of good 8mm transfers, I'd love to see them.
Brady

[Patrick]

Don't disregard super 8 for serious work. True, super 8 was initially conceived as an amatuer format in 1965 for home movies but things have progressed since then. Many of the early super 8 cameras, and many later ones too, were very simple point and shoot designs, almost like toys. But as film enthusiasts and amateur film makers became more ambitious and demanding, manufacturers responded by making more sophisticated super 8 cameras. Some of these top of the range cameras were loaded with features - slow motion, interval timers for time lapse, time exposures, flash photography, full manual exposure control, macro focussing, powerful telephoto lenses, optical effects like fades and superimpositions, multi speed power zoom etc.

Scott, one of the Aussies on this board, has shot a feature film on super 8 titled 'In My Image' http://www.mango-a-gogo.com/inmyimage/image.htm . The majority of the footage was exposed with a Beaulieu 4008, a legenday French camera and one of the few super 8 cameras with fully interchangeable lenses.

Though having said all this, super 8 is not without it's handicaps - occasionally you may come across defective film cartridges, the 'wide angles' found on zooms are not that wide, developing an effective synch sound system can be a lot of work (and money) and there are not a lot of labs that can develop the films.

[Shion]

I also didn't know that 8mm was used for anything but home movies. If anyone could give me links of good 8mm transfers, I'd love to see them.

2003 timelapse project, made up of clips by several forum members:
http://www.filmshooting.com/participate ... oflife.php

Short home movie clips (don't be put off by this- they look terriffic, especially the Plus-X one) by Taliesin:
viewtopic.php?t=8984 (Plus-X)
viewtopic.php?t=9672 (Tri-X)

Widescreen colour negative test clips by Yemi:
viewtopic.php?t=7612

Demo clips of CinePost's Super 8 transfers (go to "film transfer" section- several clips available there):
http://www.posthouse.com/

Enjoy!

-Bon

[BN]

I just saw all the videos (except for the two home movie clips- I couldnt download them). Wow! I was really suprised how good they looked. The "pulse of life" movie was really cool; I've never seen a time lapse piece that interesting. The widescreen clips were nice too, I was suprised at how good the color was. I just found my other grandfather's camera too. Its a super8 Bauer C Royal, and it looks pretty nice, but of course I'm just guessing. It'll be fine to experiment with though. Were those widescreen clips shot with a modified camera, and does it use normal super8 film? Thanks for the links!
Brady

[tlatosmd]

The Bauer Royal series is a good set of Super8 cameras indeed, though silent. There are of course ways to handle that problem either by using an external sound recording device and then synch in post (which partly needs some stretching and squeezing), or by dubbing in post, if you do it all by a script with set dialogues.

As for Super Duper8, the widescreen modification, what I, being someone who hasn't done it himself up to now, know about it is that you simply need a screwdriver to remove the camera's filmgate that's located inside the camera's film cartridge container. However, you must be aware that you can't see the gained picture area through your viewfinder, so while shooting you must be aware that the center of the picture is a little right from what used to be the center.

I'm not sure though if you can use an ordinary silent Super8 film, or if you possibly need a Super8 sound film and a sound camera. Again, I don't know the links off the top of my head but there's a number of good online manuals on Super Duper8.

Another way of getting a widescreen image is masking the film after shooting so during shooting you must always be aware that upper and lower parts of the image will be cropped, so you can't zoom in that much. However, masking results in a loss of resolution and an increased grain.

[BN]

Cool, I will research more on the superduper8 (I like the name ). The Bauer camera looks like itsonly been used a couple of times, but the six AA batteries (which I had to forcibly push into the handle) don't seem to fit right. Maybe AA's were smaller a while back? In any case, the batteries don't power the camera. I haven't given up though...
Brady

[Shion]

I just saw all the videos (except for the two home movie clips- I couldnt download them).

My bad... they're hosted on filmshooting.com's FTP server, which is inaccessible at the moment. Does anyone know of an alternative location to download the "Yoyo Boy" clips from?

Were those widescreen clips shot with a modified camera, and does it use normal super8 film? Thanks for the links!

They involved the use of a 1.5x anamorphic lens attachment, which distorts a 2.0:1 widescreen image to fit into the 1.33:1 Super 8 frame, giving more resolution than cropping a 2.0:1 image out of the frame. (The image is then stretched back into the right shape either digitally, or when projected with the appropriate attachment.)

This is different to Super Duper 8 altogether. No camera mods necessary, although the attachment itself is quite expensive (but there are cheaper alternatives available).

-Bon