DV camera discussion

[mattias]

A) Girls were never that good looking when I was in high school.

sweden's a wonderful place.

Hmm it may be a wonderful place, but Im not sure that would count as one of the reasons

actually, sweden's quite horrible place in many ways, but when it comes to the beauty of high school girls i highly doubt there's any competition at all.

/matt

[flatwood]

This is a pretty good site for info about camcorders:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

[npcoombs]

I'm now leaning towards the Panasonic HVX200.

Although those P2 cards are expensive, its a much better option than tethering to a laptop and raid unit, and the DVC HD recording format seems like the best compromise. Much better than HDV.

The only issue I have with it is the lack of interchangeable lenses, which is a problem for going wide angle.

[flatwood]

...The only issue I have with it is the lack of interchangeable lenses, which is a problem for going wide angle.

Check out the Century wides for add on and Panasonic sells one too. Ive had both the Century and the Pana and I think you'll be satisfied.

[mattias]

the DVC HD recording format seems like the best compromise. Much better than HDV.

the dvcpro hd *recording format* is tape based, as used by the varicam for example, whereas you can record anything on p2, even hdv. dvcpro hd compression is better than hdv compression though, that's for sure. the drawback is that it requires a more expensive recording format because the signal just doesn't fit on any comsumer tape format. this should be your first concern before you consider image quality, which is still more similar than different. what workflow suits ou the best? one thing i've been concerned with is how do you output your work in a p2 workflow? put it back on a card and go to a dupe house, sure, but being able to master out to hdv directly from nle is of course much cheaper and convenient.

i think disc based formats should be the way of the future. all the benefits of tape (archiving and backup) combined with all the benefits of solid state (random access, file based capturing, etc). the first prosumer camera using the xdcam system will be a huge hit i'm sure. a big brother of the z1 (or v1) recording on xdcam discs, how fantastic wouldn't that be? the xdcam hd is great and reasonably priced but requires professional lenses, which only rental houese and tv stations can afford. and no, dvd based consumer systems won't cut it.

/matt

[wado1942]

I have some experience with the HVX200 and it's not as cool as you might think. For starters, it actually have lower lattitude than the DVX100. It also has crap for a lens. It does go into the wide angle a little but it distorts pretty severely IMHO even when you move into the "normal" focal length. Also the PII cards may sound like a God send but really, you have to have at least 2 of them with you at all times. 10 minutes of record time isn't a lot when you constantly have to dump the footage to a computer. The last production on which I worked we used one of those systems and we always had to have a laptop with external hard drives running so we could dump the footage while using the other card to shoot the next shot. The director thought he would save money by not having to buy DV tape but it actually cost more money to buy hard drives to store the movie that it would have cost to just record on tape. At least if you record on tape, you edit the movie, output the final, then dump the raw footage on the hard drive and reuse it. So IMO, the PII cards are good only for special effects shots where you have to overcrank/undercrank the camera. Did I mention that the lens sucks?

[npcoombs]

Thanks for your responses. I definitely recognize the limitations in terms of the P2 workflow and the lens.

Trouble is among the semi-pro cameras there is no obvious winner.

It is a shame none of the manufacturers have gone for a superior professional tape format and have settled with HDV.

I, for one, would certainly pay much more for each individual tape, for non-MPEG2 compression and extra durability, even if it meant £50 for a half hour tape.

****
OPTIONS?

Canon Xl-H1

Pros: Good lens, option of qaulity wide angle zoom, uncompressed out
Cons: HDV for non-tethered recording, expensive, even more expensive with wide angle lens, no progressive HD

HVX200

Pros: Solid state recording, non tethered DVC Pro HD, 1080P 24fps
Cons: Expensive with P2 cards, obtrusive workflow, no great wide angle solution

JVC GY-HD251
Pros: Quality Fujinon lens, standard mount, uncompressed out
Cons: Expensive, no progressive HD, no image stablisation on lens

****
anyone care to add any further points?

I left off the Z1 because it doesn't really have any features I am after.

[wado1942]

Well I'd take the JVC over any of the other cameras you listed. I'd rather have to have a laptop strapped to the dolly than deal with bad optics or MPEG-2 compression.
I should also mention that the HVX200 doesn't do 1080P. Its native format is 960 x 720 and it upreses to 1080 at the loss of more compression. So you get a bunch of empty interpotated pixels and even higher compression using 1080. We shot our movie using 720 24p which seemed to produce the cleanest picture.

[wado1942]

Well I'd take the JVC over any of the other cameras you listed. I'd rather have to have a laptop strapped to the dolly than deal with bad optics or MPEG-2 compression.
I should also mention that the HVX200 doesn't do 1080P. Its CCDs are 1280 x 720 and it upreses to 1080. So you get a bunch of empty interpolated pixels and even higher compression using 1080. We shot our movie using 720 24p which seemed to produce the cleanest picture. HDV of course only uses 960x720 so we lost a tiny bit of resolution but really, it looked better than the 1080.

[flatwood]

....We shot our movie using 720 24p which seemed to produce the cleanest picture......

How can one get a dvd of this film??? Is it available yet??? I'd love to see it just to see what the hdv footage looks like. Thanks for sharing all this info. I think a bunch of us are thinking about diving into a new video camera. I know Im definately thinking about it. Each one of them has advantages and disadvantages. I dont see any real reason to buy one right now though. With Sony, Canon, Panasonic, and JVC. I expect the price of the Canon to come down a little.

What are the pros using on set when they are using one of these little cameras? Did I see that they are using JVC on 24?

[steve hyde]

I'm still partial to the JVC system. This said, I haven't used any of them. The reason I like the JVC cam is ergonomics. I have held one. I like shoulder mounted shooting.

I have decided investing in a DV cam is a dicey proposition and am now leaning towards a Cinema Products PL mount, S16 sound sync camera.
I can't get over my celluloid fetish..

Steve

[wado1942]

The movie is still in editing. Nobody has seen it yet, not even the DP. But I'll try to remember your request. We took MUCH care in designing the set to fall within the parameters of what the camera can handle. In fact, we won some award for set design. We also made sure that all shots were slightly telephoto to dodge some of the problems of the bad lens.

Last time I saw 24, it was shot on 16mm. They may have changed though.

[mattias]

what about the sony v1? it's the only 1080p hdv camera. btw the xl-hd1 uses pixel shift for its progressive mode, which deliver around 720 lines of resolution, so it's actually the same as the hvx200. i think you should look at the xdcam hd as well. it costs as much as all three cameras you're looking at combined, but it gives much more than three times the options, features, and quality so if you're using it for paid gigs it will be worth it in no time.

/matt

[wado1942]

XDCAM, better CCD, FAR WORSE recording codec. Interchangable lenses are always good.

[flatwood]

XDCAM, better CCD, FAR WORSE recording codec. Interchangable lenses are always good.

Whats your choice of all these cameras???