Disposable Video Camera

Post by **Cranium** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:05 pm

I think boohoo makes a good point. Are there a lot of video cameras with crazy-ass fast lenses?

Think about a 310XL.

But I think DV would be wasted on it. As CCDs and CMOS get smaller and higher res and faster framerates, THEN it would be uber-cool.
Sorry, I can't remember the code for u-umlaut. ;)

And if it could actually be triggered by the claw, I would, indeed, buy one. Even for a couple hundred $$.

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:15 pm

Cranium wrote:But I think DV would be wasted on it. As CCDs and CMOS get smaller and higher res and faster framerates, THEN it would be uber-cool.

i don't understand what you're saying here. that dv is too low res, that 25/30 fps isn't enough or that the ccd is too big, or all three? you realize that as the chips get smaller you get more and more dof and a narrower field of view, right?

/matt

Post by **Cranium** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:33 pm

Right. I do realize that.

I'm talking about higher res, higher FPS imagers getting down to S8 size. Not below. Like in the next couple years, a cheap 720P 1/4" imager won't be out of the question.
While I fully realize this digital cart for S8 is remarkably unlikely to happen, I do like the concept it. Sure, the DOF won't be too shallow, but there are a lot of reasons I'd still like to screw around with one.
Hell, if for no other reason than to continue to freak people out when I bust out a S8 cam.

A decent f/1.0 lens would be another.

Alex · Post by **Alex** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:47 pm

mattias wrote:
boohoo wrote:No video camera has the depth of field of super8.
you mean lack of it, right? ;-) anyway, i don't think it's true. to me they were always pretty similar, which is confirmed by the fact that a 1/4" ccd is in fact about the exact same size as the super 8 frame and the resolution is very similar too.

/matt

I'm of the opinion that Super-8 is more like a 1/2 inch ccd.

16mm is more like a 2/3 inch ccd, and 35mm is more like a 3/4 or 1 inch CCD.

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:57 pm

Alex wrote:I'm of the opinion that Super-8 is more like a 1/2 inch ccd.

i'm trying to figure out how this could be since the dof depends mostly on the size of the image, but then it's the coc which is hard to figure out when you're not projecting optically. are you saying this is the reason or do you have another explanation?

/matt

Post by **chachi** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:01 pm

You could probably hack a small digital cam into a case like that of a super 8 cart. It would need to have the lens mechanism removed and setting of the back focus distance to the ccd would be crucial.

I bet this guy could do it!

http://www.classicgaming.com/vcsp/

Maybe If we all chipped in and paid him for a prototype w/Instructions he could build it.
We could then raffle off the prototype we get and have all that useful info for ourselves (giving props of coarse). I have personally taken apart a canon A70 and think this would be totally possible.

The A70 was a big camera, but they do make them way smaller then that these days..
Anyhow, inside the A70, their are many smaller boards which could be sandwiched together to lose some room, others would have to be cut and jumped with wires. We Just need it to be set to movie mode and turned on when trigger is pressed. Start up time should be quicker if we can bypass the lens mechanism altogether. Possibly, the camera could be activated by the movement of the claw. That way we can justify running the camera to ourselves!

Post by **boohoo** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:00 pm

"Digital photography review" gives a very thoughrough explanation of CCD sizes.

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossar ... zes_01.htm

I always figured a super8 film gate was between the sizes 1/6 inch and 1/4 inch. These days that size chip is very inexpensive, even with a high megapixel count. I even thing a mod/hack may be possible with existing CCD cameras (removing the film door can clear up a lot of erognomic issues), but I don't think triggering filming by the super8 camera claw will be very easy initially and is most likley best to be forgeten about for now.

Post by **chachi** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:11 am

well there is a take up mechanism that can be used to trigger the cam Instead of the claw. However, If i have to press a button on the side of the camera with the door off, the whole idea is lost on me.

This would all just be for fun anyway, But I would want to use this type of cart on my best camera for fun mostly and not have to modifymy camera at all to do it.

Post by **audadvnc** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:39 am

This may be an ideal application for one of those shutterless cameras. Have the pulldown claw strike a microswitch to advance the frame, burn the frame to hard disk or memory stick, and you can have variable speed video in a S8 cart. Handle the 18/24fps to 29.97 conversion in FCP and you don't even need fancy software.

But you won't get the vertical streak, of course...

Post by **Angus** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:39 am

Alex wrote:
Angus wrote:
Now I've got some 20+ year old video camera by JVC that will do all that, indeed we use it at the school where I work to project microscope slides and other small items to whole classes (god bless eBay!), but try finding that facility on a modern camcorder!
Little by little, I start to see corroborating statements to my own on this forum about hardware utility versus software futility. Older, bigger, analog style of camcorders allowing for physical control over useful functions that are now not as easily available or controllable in the newer "Better" "Digital" camcorders.

Your other option is to buy one of those camera heads, even a good CCTV camera, with a c-mount and get a manual lens. Works OK if you dopn't need portability (needs a power supply).

Post by **boohoo** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:29 pm

Your other option is to buy one of those camera heads, even a good CCTV camera, with a c-mount and get a manual lens. Works OK if you dopn't need portability (needs a power supply).

Portability is a huge poblem with these cameras. I once assisted a proffessor with such a set up for an archeological dig. He needed it to run nearly 24 hours a day for time lapse and the issues with powering the thing was a nightmare. Are low power consumption CCD cameras sold that can be run for a reasonable amount of time on battery power?

Post by **ccortez** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:33 pm

boohoo wrote: Portability is a huge poblem with these cameras. I once assisted a proffessor with such a set up for an archeological dig. He needed it to run nearly 24 hours a day for time lapse and the issues with powering the thing was a nightmare. Are low power consumption CCD cameras sold that can be run for a reasonable amount of time on battery power?

surely. i have a canon powershot (digital elph) sd400. it's tiny, the whole thing case and all would fit in a S8 cart. if they can do movie mode on that thing (and it's pretty good, actually), we can surely find the pieces to build something similar into our prototype...

Post by **boohoo** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:36 pm

ccortez, I have also thought the same thing. However I always wanted to use one of those cheap Aiptek or Mustek models. They are a lot easier to disassemble and alter, plus I wouldn't feel guilty about breaking one. I think the aiptek models are best because they offer 640x480 30fps on some models and they have no file size limit, just shoot unitl the SD card is full.

Post by **ccortez** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:11 pm

boohoo wrote:ccortez, I have also thought the same thing. However I always wanted to use one of those cheap Aiptek or Mustek models. They are a lot easier to disassemble and alter, plus I wouldn't feel guilty about breaking one. I think the aiptek models are best because they offer 640x480 30fps on some models and they have no file size limit, just shoot unitl the SD card is full.

sure, i wasn't suggesting tearing apart a brand new, quality digital camera...

(fwiw, there is no file size limit on this lovely little canon either; just shoot until i reach 1GB - the limit on my card

)

my point was that small ccd hardware - including chip, board and mem card -- is readily available.

don't know about aiptek (apetech?

) or mustek, but i'll look into it.

i'm really itching to start cobbling something together. damn, i should have gotten on this project a 6 months ago when it first came to mind...

Post by **audadvnc** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:21 pm

boohoo wrote:I think the aiptek models are best because they offer 640x480 30fps on some models and they have no file size limit, just shoot unitl the SD card is full.

Which aiptek models do this? The ones I found on the aiptek site only show 640x480 to 11fps and 352 x 288 Pixels at 30fps.

http://www.aiptek.com/