Cutting ties with Pro 8mm

[supermag400_inventor]

The film was not actually free. The original agreement we made was he would get a Supermag 400 in exchange for test film. He has his mag, and I was going to give him another one. But, the relationship would have benifited him much more than me. I would still have to sell the mags myself. He would be able to buy them for a discounted price and sell them as a package deal with film and other equipment for a nice profit. That was his plan......Not anymore.

I'm sure he'll survive no matter what people say about his business. He's been doing this for over 30 years, and he's still in business. I hope he does ok, because we still need more activity in the super 8 field or we all loose. The more companies there are, mean more competition and lower prices.

[thebrowniecameraguy]

When is the K40 test film going to be ready?

Jordan

[supermag400_inventor]

The K-40 test film was damaged in transit. It's a total loss.
$145.00 out the window!!!
I will have to reshoot when I can get more film.

[matt5791]

......It only drills it into the ground faster because someone who used his stocks for free isn't returning the "favor" by kissing up and verbalizing the party's propaganda. He is speaking outright on the facts in spite of the fact that there is an existing partnership in which Super 8 mag man is getting free resources.

I cant remember supermag inventor having any specific problems himself with Pro8 stock? mabey he did and did not report it here, or mebey he did report it and I havent seen the post.

It is just that I have the impression that he has decided to cut his ties because of what other people are saying as opposed to any problems he has had personally. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Or mabey he has pissed around for too long and Phil has got bored waiting for the finished product. I don't know.

Having seen a fair bit of Pro8 originated cart-based material, it's as stable as any other super 8 footage.

I have to say that every cart of Pro8 film I have shot has been rock-steady.

Matt

[supermag400_inventor]

Many of the problems people have reported on this forum are the same problems I've had with their film. Fogging, out of date, scratched and dirty film.

It's just too coincedental that all the same problems I have had are the same reported by people who used Pro 8. It's better to stop using their film and start using fresh quality films from Kodak and Fuji. It's the only way I'll get fair results.

[companyofquail]

I cant remember supermag inventor having any specific problems himself with Pro8 stock? mabey he did and did not report it here, or mebey he did report it and I havent seen the post

It is just that I have the impression that he has decided to cut his ties because of what other people are saying as opposed to any problems he has had personally. Correct me if I'm wrong.

i believe from the other posts your "impression" is correct to an extent, i am sure that a percentage of his severing ties with pro8 is due to what other people say, because this is business, and even if he had the best service in the world from pro8 it wouldnt matter because most of the people on this forum would not be buying the film for the Supermag from Pro8, so he would be shutting off his preferred market.

for example, there is a theater in my hometown that a lot of people will not go to because of certain political reasons that i am not even completely clear on. i go there because somtimes it is the only way to see a certain movie and i have had good experiences, but if i were to screen my own film i would not show it there because my potential audience would be deterred.

hope i didnt speak out of turn for you supermag400inventor, please step in and speak up if i did.

[matt5791]

Many of the problems people have reported on this forum are the same problems I've had with their film. Fogging, out of date, scratched and dirty film.

It's just too coincedental that all the same problems I have had are the same reported by people who used Pro 8. It's better to stop using their film and start using fresh quality films from Kodak and Fuji. It's the only way I'll get fair results.

I hear you loud and clear, it is just that sometime I feel that there are more people talking about other people who are also talking about getting crap film and service.

Admitedly there are some first hand cases here of people who feel they have had a raw deal, but there are many more people who seem to just join in "Pro8 bashing" as some sort of sport, even though they probably don't have a lot of justification. Statements like "...I have a reliable source that tells me....." etc.

From your point of view I think you should consider the satisfied customers (and there must be a lot of them) who never post here or anywhere else about the fact that they did not have a problem with Pro8.

Matt.

[Lunar07]

Then let Phil step in and explain to supermag400_inventor the facts. super8mag400 is interested in knowing the facts. Right? What I see here is the figure of a 'guru' by the name of Phil who refuses to give out facts. And I see on the other side supermag400 who is trying to make sense of it all BECAUSE it affects his business. But the mystery that is Phil refuses to speak and insists on having his actions interpreted by a 'medium.' He gets angry at supermag400 for stating an opinion. Is Phil a God, a spiritual presence, or some sort of of a metaphysical entity? If Phil has his business interests, so does supermag400.
But I agree on one thing: supermag400 should not have dragged the name of Pro8mm or Phil into this conversation. There are certain things that should not be told. And supermag400 should have kept his business dealings to himself and stuck to statements of fact on the new sources for film for the mag and testing.

Many of the problems people have reported on this forum are the same problems I've had with their film. Fogging, out of date, scratched and dirty film.

It's just too coincedental that all the same problems I have had are the same reported by people who used Pro 8. It's better to stop using their film and start using fresh quality films from Kodak and Fuji. It's the only way I'll get fair results.

I hear you loud and clear, it is just that sometime I feel that there are more people talking about other people who are also talking about getting crap film and service.

Admitedly there are some first hand cases here of people who feel they have had a raw deal, but there are many more people who seem to just join in "Pro8 bashing" as some sort of sport, even though they probably don't have a lot of justification. Statements like "...I have a reliable source that tells me....." etc.

From your point of view I think you should consider the satisfied customers (and there must be a lot of them) who never post here or anywhere else about the fact that they did not have a problem with Pro8.

Matt.

[MovieStuff]

I have hesitated in getting involved in this discussion but, for what it's worth, here is my take on things:

I have known Phil on and off for many years. We don't talk all the time; hardly ever these days, in fact. However, I have always found him to be fair and considerate and to the point. More specifically, in the past he has always treated me with respect and, I would judge, fairly. He is totally enthusiastic about 8mm and I think even his subtractors would admit that.

That notwithstanding, there are obviously people out there that find his company----though possibly not him----to have some issues. But this obviously begs the question of whether these issues are really the rule or the exception and, to be fair to all involved, how many times those that do complain have gone to the well. What I mean is that, typically, someone seems to go to Pro8mm with a project, they have problems, then they post that Pro8mm is deficient or something. The obvious problem is that there really is no baseline for comparison and there will never be one if the person that complained never goes back a second or even third time. It is totally understandable if they choose not to go back to take another chance but, realistically, if their one or two problems with Pro 8mm supposedly establish a trend of deficiency, the don't my one or two successes with Pro 8mm establish a trend of trustworthiness? You really can't have it both ways except to state an expectation that a company should never have problems and that is simply unrealistic.

As someone else pointed out, people that are satisfied never seem to post about multiple successes while people that get screwed once seem to tell the same story over and over again, as if repeating it will somehow magnify the transgression into something more significant than it really is. That is not to say that a screwed project isn't important. On the contrary, it is hugely important to that person and rightly so. But does a single screwed project really signify a trend more than hundreds of successful projects?

While I am not so quick to damn Phil for negligence, I can tell you as an employer that I have little control over what my employees do on a moment to moment basis. Occasionally, there are issues with how something my employee might say comes across wrong or is, in fact, somewhat rude. I don't tolerate it but there is little I can do to prevent it 24/7. In that respect, I think it is highly possible that an employee of his was inconsiderate to a customer or even multiple customers. That is not necessarily a reflection of his character but, rather, his abilities to manage the situation. As my employees can tell you, I am a fair person but a lousy manager. I have no idea what it is like to work for Phil.

I am very sympathetic to Dave because he has a huge vested interest in seeing the mag get off the ground and he needs all the help he can get.
It certainly seems a simple matter to find out if the problems Dave is finding are the result of short end reclaimation, processing, or the mag by sitting down and going over it with Phil. Changing to new stock is very prudent, regardless of how safe one thinks that short ends might be. But, even if Phil says that short ends are not being used, that still leaves the possiblilites of faulty handling in processing or light leaks in the mag; both of which will still be unknowns, regardless of what lab is used unless multiple tests are done across multiple labs. So a change of venue isn't going to answer the harder questions related to production of this mag but will simply be part of the ongoing diagnostic process.

All the related bitching and moaning is simply so much noise from the peanut gallery, IMHO, the validity of which is academic to the project at hand.

My two cents......

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv

[supermag400_inventor]

Well done Roger! ..... You are so correct. As I stated before, I do not hold Phil totally at fault for the problems he and his company face with customers who have expressed their beefs on this site. However, my own personal involvement with Pro 8 has been hit and miss when it comes to the film issue. I've had film come back badly fogged with perfect registration and no scratches, then the next one was badly scratched but clean. Each and every test film I've shot from Pro 8, with the exception of the one film, which I have on my site. Has been off for one of the stated reasons. Then look at the last one, which was clear and crisp. That was 50D negative stock and it was much better. Think about the odds. If the mag worked the same way each test, why would the film results change so drasticly each time. Then one comes out nearly perfect.

Phil is a great guy. But as I said, that's not enough when it comes to product quality and customer service. If his reputation is damaged, it's up to him to fix it. That comes from learning from your mistakes and correcting the problems at the source. Not ignoring it.

In respect, if my customers write me and tell me their ideas of how to improve the mag and what they feel is wrong with it, I take it very seriously and listen to them. They are after all, my customers. I want to keep them my customers. So, if there is a problem, I deal with it the best I can to satisfy the customer. Those little things you do to please the one customer can have a lasting effect on everyone who deals with you for years to come. But in the same respect, if you screw up and the customer is pissed off because of lack of satisfaction, no matter what you say, your going to pay for it over and over again.

I really, really do wish him and Pro 8 all the best of luck in their business dealings. After all, I do owe Phil a debt of gratitude for helping me get this project off in the right direction. I don't want to see any super 8 company go under. We need them all to keep the format alive. Lets just say that to work around the issues, I think it's best I keep my mouth shut from this point on and let you all decide your own choices and who you buy film and services from. I've got work to do.

Dave

[Alex]

I kind of feel like Moviestuff on this one. I've actually worked there (briefly) about 10 years ago, and I think I get it.

One of the most important issues to realize is that no other company like a Pro-8mm survived the late 80's and the 90's. So the question becomes, how much "kinder and gentler" could Pro-8mm have been all these years, and survived?

No one knows the answer to that one.

I do know that the nice guys that worked there and cared about every call tended to fixate on the problem of the moment, and Phil's concern was what about the other calls that come in. How much time should an employee spend seeing if they have a knob for a Canon 1014 versus being ready for someone who calls and wants info on buying a $ 5,000 to
$ 10,000 dollar film package that Pro-8mm was paying thousands of dollars per month to advertise in various magazines.

So the philosophy became, "if you need to buy one of our products, we'll talk to you, if you need a part for your camera that you didn't buy from us, you are preventing us from making our living and we really don't have time for you".

You wouldn't call Toyota for a Honda part would you?

A really big problem with Super-8 is that when production shut down, ALL EXISTING CAMERAS WERE SOLD OFF AT 70% off of regular prices. So the mindset of most everyone who called in was what their camera cost at liquidation prices, then every decision they made about their camera and regarding servicing was always based upon an unrealistic purchase price.

"You want me to pay $400 on a camera that I bought for $300!!!!" Well, actually the camera should have sold for $1,000 bucks or more, at which point a $400.00 repair or service would be reasonable. The dump off of BRAND NEW Super-8 cameras in the early 80's doomed the aftermarket Super-8 repair business because nobody wanted to pay more for servicing then the amount they paid to buy the camera.

If you buy into Pro-8mm products, you generally are treated much better than if you want to talk about anything Super-8 that you did not buy from Pro-8mm.

So the key to working with Pro-8mm is to check out everything on their "menu/price list", then use those buzz words when you call in.

I'd like to "rank a roll", "I'd like the four cartridge transfer deal", etc...

Now the only other problem is if you are on the low end of the spectrum, meaning you are only interested in their cheapest offers, there is a chance you won't get the same level of service as the guy who shot 50 Super-8 cartridges for the next Madonna Video.

-----------------------------

Phil is the Good Cop, but no one seems to know who the "bad cop" is at Pro-8mm.

[reflex]

You wouldn't call Toyota for a Honda part would you?

I think that should be, "You wouldn't call Texaco for a Honda part, would you?"

Pro 8 sells fuel for cameras. Unfortunately, when all the camera manufacturers have gone broke, that means that people are gonna come to the fuel station looking for replacement parts when their machines break.

They are, after all, much more likely to have parts than your local Wal*Mart.

[DrkAngl]

I think the key here and in many other posts is that Phil is using cheap bargain short ends for a product that he is clearly representing as new. This is something that involves unfair risk to filmmakers who are paying top dollar for his film (which is far more expensive than fresh Kodak stocks). Not to mention that it is a fraudulent business practice. This is just one of the reasons why the results filmmakers get seem to be all over the map.

I know this to be true and factual, but, others need to probe as well to help substantiate that truth. I suggest that the next time somebody buys pro8mm film, they ask Phil where it came from, how it was stored, when was his machinery last maintained. It might also be wise to ask the same about his film processing procedures.

If he claims the film is fresh, ask to take a tour to see the “film storage facility” and the film conversion equipment. I would be willing to bet he will deny access – even if you only ask to view his stacks of fresh 35mm.

Phil also has a very engaging personality. I know because I fell into this trap. Don’t let him fool you. He knows exactly what goes on at Pro8mm. None of the employees (except maybe Monica) should be blamed. Phil makes all the rules and keeps very close control over everybody – including how they treat the customers.

Frankly, I don’t blame SuperMag400 for using caution. He has his own reputation at stake as well as a great deal of time and money spent developing his ideas. Why should he let Pro8mm make a quick buck with their crap film while he suffers for all the problems that arise. If he can figure a way around Pro8mm than more power to him.

I commend SuperMag and support him for his willingness to stand up to Phil and ask questions! He has definitely earned my respect as a filmmaker.

[Alex]

You wouldn't call Toyota for a Honda part would you?

I think that should be, "You wouldn't call Texaco for a Honda part, would you?"

Pro 8 sells fuel for cameras. Unfortunately, when all the camera manufacturers have gone broke, that means that people are gonna come to the fuel station looking for replacement parts when their machines break.

They are, after all, much more likely to have parts than your local Wal*Mart.

I completely agree with you. The problem is a problem every business faces. How much of your company resources do you devote to stuff that you no longer sell?

Pro-8mm was selling Beaulieu and Nizo and the Russian cameras.

Calling them with a question about a Canon Camera is a loss leader for them. I own a few JVC 3-chip cameras. The facility in California tends to be unsupportive over repairing them because they are ten years old. However the picture quality is IDENTICAL to a Panasonic DVX-100!

JVC is putting their repair focus on newer equipment instead. It's exactly the same thing as what Pro-8mm does. The difference is NEW STUFF is actually being made in the video world, which appeases the newer people, and the older folks are fading away so it kind of works out. 8O

Although the video I still shoot on my 10 year old cameras is still equal to or better than the $3,000 dollar camcorder, I am expected to ante up and buy new stuff, or get lost.

I love HI-FI audio recording, especially for Operas, that's why I want to keep using my KY-19's and KY-27's, but JVC doesn't really care, what have I done for them lately in the way of equipment purchase?

Sound familar?

I don't hear tirades against JVC, but we hear it about Pro-8mm non-stop.

If Pro-8mm really had what it took, they'd actually make their own super-8 camera line and cover all the bases, quiet cameras, special effect cameras, steadi-cam style. Instead they have chosen to make a profitable living off of the excess camera equipment of past decades, and over time that will annoy people because it's a slash and burn philosophy.

By the way, how would you feel about your customers if many of them won't spend more than $300 bucks on a super-8 camera but will spend $3,500 on a mini-dv set-up.

[Santo]

By the way, how would you feel about your customers if many of them won't spend more than $300 bucks on a super-8 camera but will spend $3,500 on a mini-dv set-up.

Good point. But it's just a little more than $300 for a "Pro Classic". Pro8 slaps enough of a premium on their Beaulieus that they could easily be buying them on ebay and shipping them to a quality recondition place (oh, I don't know, like the famous Bjorn on here), and then mark it up 100% and glue a Pro8 sticker on it. They could be doing that no problem at all.

Overpricing isn't really a legitimate complaint, however. They have no monopoly except on the two most natural negative film stocks for super8. V2 100t and 50d. This really confounds me and makes me wonder if there isn't an agreement of sorts between Kodak and Pro8? Could just be Kodak really dragging its feet and pure speculation, but it's odd.