OT - The fastest growing crime

[Patrick]

I can see that the seller, honest or dishonest, could be placed at a disadvantage using escrow. If, however, the seller is a bit dishonest and rejects the item, the buyer should have previously taken the item to a repair shop, if it is an electrical product, and get a quote. The seller should submit the documentation from the repair shop, describing the faults of the item, to the organisation offering the escrow service to show that the buyer is wrong to reject the item. You could even back this up by also submitting a copy of the Ebay item description in addition to the repair quote to demonstrate that the item was not as described. This, I hope, should be sufficient proof for the escrow people that the seller's invalid claims are indeed wrong.

[jean]

Oh, I thought the escrow made sure that payment was done? What I'm worrying about is selling an expensive item and the buyer screws me simply by withrawing his payment. If when using escrow, the buyer still can withdraw the payment and keep the item - heck, what's the point then?

There is no way to get money or item back if the buyer is in a different country, unless you have infinite funds, a lot of time, and want to make a point. I have neither, and if I sold anything e.g. overseas, and the buyer decides to screw me.. well, then I'm screwed, I guess, with or without escrow.

[aj]

The Western Union auction payments (formerly known as Bidpay) cannot be withdrawn and leaves the transfer costs with the buyer.
Although when cashing and an exchange is needed the receiver is going to loose some money on that. Then it might be better to ask for a regualr Western Union transfer. This can be drawn up in other than USD

But these costs and hassle also frightens off potential bidders/buyers so you get lower bids.

[MattPacini]

The problem with PayPal, is not identity theft.
The problem is, their business practices are so questionable, that they act like credit card scammers themselves.

I got burned by a PayPal user, and I will NEVER use PayPal again.

They're great, as long as nobody decides to screw you.
If someone does, PayPal acts 100% in self interest, and in my case, would give me no information other than that the person paid me with fraudulent funds, citing "customer privacy". HIS, not mine!
They would not even tell me the date the item was returned, or any other info to enable me to prosecute the guy, or go after him in any way whatsoever. Couldn't file a police report, could file it as mail fraud, nothing.
And what's more, they let him continue to scam people in exactly the same way without cutting him off.
I watched his negative feedback stack up for a couple months, pulling the same scam.

The reason they have their claws into your checking acount, supposedly for "verification" reasons, is that if someone burns you, they make YOU pay. They will snag that money out of your account before you know what's happened, and freeze ALL the money in your account.

Let's say you have $2,500 in your PayPal account.
I buy a $5.00 item from you via PayPal, and PayPal's automated software decides there "might" be something fishy about my payment (like I'm asking you to ship to a different address than my PayPal account).
They automatically freeze the ENTIRE $2,500 in your account for 6 months.
And just try getting through to them.
Go to their website and try to find a customer service phone number.
There isn't one!
And just because ebay bought them, doesn't mean they're running it.
This is a false sense of security.

Go to http://www.paypalsucks.com and read some of the horror stories.

Matt Pacini

[MovieStuff]

I got burned by a PayPal user, and I will NEVER use PayPal again.

Yes but:

A) PayPal didn't burn you. The buyer did.
and

B) Your problem happened before it was taken over by ebay.

You have the option of not doing business with non-verified buyers and you can also decide what form of payment you choose to use to minimize or eliminate all the risk associated with the transaction.

Let's say you have $2,500 in your PayPal account.
I buy a $5.00 item from you via PayPal, and PayPal's automated software decides there "might" be something fishy about my payment (like I'm asking you to ship to a different address than my PayPal account).
They automatically freeze the ENTIRE $2,500 in your account for 6 months.

Matt, you know I admire and respect you but this information is simply incorrect. PayPal will only "freeze" the amount in dispute and not simply on a whim because something looks "fishy". I mean, make up your mind; either PayPal does nothing about security in the face of blatant fraud or they do too much simply to fuck with you for no reason.

We have used PayPal for hundreds of thousands of dollars of transactions, shipping to both verified and unverified addresses and have never, ever had a single problelm. I have a PayPal account rep and I can call him any time I need to and discuss any type of concern I might have.

Go to http://www.paypalsucks.com and read some of the horror stories.

All written by people that can't balance their own check book and think that PayPal is supposed to be a loan institution, money courier and police force all rolled up together.

Look, you had a single problem with them years ago and stopped using them early on so, by your own admission, you don't really have any continued experience with them under the relatively new ebay ownership, do you? This would be like someone trying to shoot 16mm for the first time, getting bad footage and then proclaiming to the world that 16mm is unviable as a serious production medium.

Roger

[MattPacini]

This wasn't written by someone who can't balance their checkbook (Ok, how would either one of us know this?), but was an employee of PayPal:

http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showt ... ld_block=0

Roger, I realize that many, many people have used PayPal and not had a problem.
I used them for a long time, and didn't have a problem... until I did.

The problems start IF, and only IF someone burns you, then PayPal does nothing to help you in any way, even if you want to take care of it yourself and not have them do anything to fix the problem, get your money back, etc.

I have yet to hear someone who is happy with PayPal who HAS gotten burned by a PayPal customer.

Virtually nobody is happy with the way PayPal deals with the INNOCENT party in a scam, and that's my complaint.
They basically take the money from whoever has it - THE GOOD GUY.

And there simply is no justification for not giving a burned customer the information to go after the guy yourself, right?
I could not do a damn thing against this guy, not take him to small claims, not file a police report or anything, and I tried.

Roger, I wish you well in all your PayPal transactions and hope you never have the experience I did, but as soon as someone burns you you're going to have a completely different view of PayPal, I guarantee you.

Matt Pacini

[MovieStuff]

This wasn't written by someone who can't balance their checkbook (Ok, how would either one of us know this?), but was an employee of PayPal:

LOL. Matt, why is it that you are so selective in which stranger you choose to believe? I mean, you don't know any more about the validity of this guy than the guy that burned you in your transaction. Just because this guy says he was an ex-PayPal manager doesn't mean he was, does it?

What happens if your car doesn't start one morning? Do you just leave it where it sits and go buy a new car? One experience doesn't create a pattern.

[camera8mm]

From reading this, I cant even begin to understand why you'd want to have $2500 in an "account" that isnt even isured, receive no interest on, etc.

I had ebay trouble when an item I won and paid through with paypal wasnt sent. I called my banking card and they issued fraud notices to the seller.
Oddly enough, I shortly got the item. It was inconvienient enough because the bank cancelled the card (over one transaction) but they would have had to recover against the seller.

paypal has none of this. they pretend to do with a fee attached. and a long winded privacy policy. I dont use paypal anymore either.
and there have been some fake paypal/ebay payment pages going around lately (the ones for $15.00) I dont see ebay or paypal lifting a finger sending notices they are fakes.

[MattPacini]

"... Just because this guy says he was an ex-PayPal manager doesn't mean he was, does it?"

(MP): No, but just because he says he's an ex-PayPal employee manager doesn't mean he WASN'T either!

"... One experience doesn't create a pattern.

(MP): Its does when the experience is part of a stated policy and procedure by a company, and there are many, many testaments by other people having had the same, or worse experience.
THAT is a pattern!
They aren't just randomly deciding what to do in these circumstances, they have set up a policy, and they act according to that policy.
You don't find out how that policy works until someone actually screws you.
I have no reason to think they would act differently now than they did when I had my problem, and there are plenty of other folks continuing to experience this.

Again, find me someone who has gotten scammed in a PayPal deal, that is happy with how PayPal dealt with it.

Matt Pacini

[aj]

paypalsucks.com

I find this site somewhat old. Much of the stories are from 1999. Also much of the anecdotes are about non-delivery and such trouble. Hardly to do with the method of payment.

When doing eBay for super8 most trouble comes from misrepresented items. I.e. too optimistic. Or with statements like, do not know much, item not tested or sellers pretend to be fellow hobbyist while being trader. Here bidders should assume there is something wrong with the item.[/quote]

[S8 Booster]

I got a quick reponse from PayPal on the latest attempt from the fraudlets:

Date:
Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:44:47 -0600

To:
"Dont even think about it" <yowza@spamkiller.com>

Subject:
RE: Fraud PayPalmail: Confirm Your Information! (KMM43210653V1563L0KM)

From: "spoof @paypal.com" <spoof @paypal.com>  Add to Address Book

Thank you for bringing this suspicious email to our attention. We can
confirm that the email you received; was not sent to you by PayPal. The
website linked to this email is not a registered URL authorized or used
byPayPal. We are currently investigating this incident fully. Please do
not enter any personal or financial information into this website.

If you have surrendered any personal or financial information to this
fraudulent website, you should immediately log into your PayPal Account
and change your password and secret question and answer information. Any compromised financial information should be reported to the appropriate parties.

If you notice any unauthorized activity associated with your PayPal
transaction history, please immediately report this to PayPal by
following the instructions below:

1. Go to https://www.paypal.com/

2. Click on the Security Center at the bottom of the page

3. Click on 'Report a Problem'

4. Select the Topic: Report Fraud

5. Select the Subtopic: Unauthorized use of my PayPal Account, and
click Continue

6. Follow the instructions to access the appropriate form

R

[MovieStuff]

"... Just because this guy says he was an ex-PayPal manager doesn't mean he was, does it?"

(MP): No, but just because he says he's an ex-PayPal employee manager doesn't mean he WASN'T either!

???? Not the point, really, is it? I mean, it's all about who you trust and why you make a distinction when you do. The point is that you simply have no way of telling if this guy is on the level. You choose to believe the minority over the majority that have had no issues simply because you once had a problem when it was under different managment. Your belief that it HAS to still be the same under new management is based on nothing but supposition. I'm not dogging you but, really, your conclusions just don't seem logicial, Matt. This is like not buying a car from someone because you knew the original owner got speeding tickets while driving it. I just don't see the connection.

One experience doesn't create a pattern.

(MP): Its does when the experience is part of a stated policy and procedure by a company,

What stated policy or procedure? You mean the one that let's you decide on the level of security you want to excercise on each transaction? You mean the one that let's you use excrow to prevent fraud? You mean the one that lets you sell only to verified members? Or the one that strongly suggests that you only ship to verified addresses if you want PayPal to help you in the case of fraud? I mean, the level of security on PayPal is so intense that it actually puts some people off so I can't believe that you'd really have a complaint about any stated policies dealing with security or any misunderstanding regarding the responsibilities of the seller. Their rules are pretty clear.

and there are many, many testaments by other people having had the same, or worse experience.
THAT is a pattern!

Oh please. And for every PayPal whiner, there are 10 people that swear banks are in error and the check shouldn't have bounced. That's a pattern, too, and is far more common than any PayPal myth. If the testament of the many count for something, then it should be very telling that PayPal has millions and millions of satisfied customers involved in multiple millions of transactions on a dailey basis. So what is more likely, that these millions are just "lucky" or that the whiners were deliberately screwed by PayPal for no reason?

I have no reason to think they would act differently now than they did when I had my problem,

On the contrary, you have millions of reasons to feel otherwise and no experience at all with the current owners management.

and there are plenty of other folks continuing to experience this.

I doubt it, frankly.

Again, find me someone who has gotten scammed in a PayPal deal, that is happy with how PayPal dealt with it.

Well, then that would be me, Matt. When I say that I've never had any problems, that doesn't mean that no one has tried to screw me via PayPal or ebay. I mean I've never had any problems with PayPal. I've had my share of deadbeats and PayPal has always been there to straighten things out. You had one bad experience under previous ownership. I've had at least 10 times that many under the current ownership, which took care of things. It is too bad that previous management left you hanging and soured you on the service. Current ownership won't. Believe what you want but, based on actual experience, the current PayPal system is one of the most secure I've ever seen. Again, it has millions and millions of members for a very good reason.

[Patrick]

Woops! I made a big blunder in my last post about escrow. What I meant to say was 'the BUYER should submit the documentation (quote) from the repair shop, describing the faults of the item to the organisation offering the escrow service to show that the SELLER is wrong to reject the item.'

Jean, I see in no way how a buyer can withdraw the money during an escrow transaction. The escrow people have the buyer's money in a special account for safe keeping. If the buyer is dissatisfied with the item, he/she sends the item back. No escrow service would allow the buyer to keep both the item and the money! I would hope that if the buyer claims that he/she is unsatisfied, the buyer would be requested to send back the item first, and then only after the seller receives the item back, then the buyer is refunded his/her money. This would be ideal but of course I would check the order of procedures of the particular escrow service that I would be dealing with (just to be sure.)

[Patrick]

Speaking of Ebay frauds and scams, I came across an auction last year that appeared very fishy. There was a Canon XL1 with a BUY IT NOW price of US$40. !!!! What was even more strange was that prospective buyers totally ignored the ultra cheap 'buy it now' option and chose to bid on the item instead. So before too long, the 'buy it now' option disappeared and the bidding price went into the thousands as they often do with XL1 options. Overall very, very odd.

[mercyboy]

i love the ebay boneheads who unknowingly bid up an item beyond it's original buy-it-now price (because they never see it as it is removed upon the first bid), but never bother to check the seller's list of other items for sale which list many more of the same item at the lower buy-it-now price!!! ha! and what's up with the bigger boneheads who i see paying way more for something then what they'd pay at any online store??? it cracks me up.