Film vs digital part 2

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danpuddick
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Post by danpuddick »

Just my opinion but..

won't all the big boys switchin to digital send a load of pro film gear floating down the Movie foodchain to the likes of us (well you lot really :) )
Of course if the manufacturers of filmstocks stop its a terrible problem.. but new technologies, new´chemical processes and the like can make them viable even if the consumption decreases.


ps I loved Fucking Ã…mal, just like Herr Bergman... I havn't managed to see one of Lukas' films yet without blubbing.... what a soppy bastard.... however when I saw Lilya 4 ever at a charity showing, even the Finnish ambassador seemed to be holding back the tears when he gave a little speech and if Moodysson can move a Finnish Civil Servant he must be doing something right.
keep on truckin'
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Re: Audiences

Post by MovieStuff »

Brandt wrote: When movies like "Dumb and Dumberer" make it out the door...shot on 35mm...and audiences aren't calling for somebody's head, it says a lot about what they will take and what they won't.
Exactly.
Brandt wrote:For me, the fuzzy pastel image didn't make Star Wars EPII unwatchable. Lucas' script did.
Ouch. :?
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Post by mattias »

MovieStuff wrote:Do you think they live in a vacuum and don't know that the movie they are about to see was shot on digital?
what does that have to do with anything? all i said was that people do care about picture quality. what puzzles me is that you seem to be saying that too, while at the same time trying to argue with me?

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Post by MovieStuff »

mattias wrote:
MovieStuff wrote:Do you think they live in a vacuum and don't know that the movie they are about to see was shot on digital?
what does that have to do with anything? all i said was that people do care about picture quality.
What does that have to with anything if that concern for quality isn't reflected in a demand for better product?
mattias wrote:what puzzles me is that you seem to be saying that too, while at the same time trying to argue with me?
What puzzles me is that you can post photos of images shot on grainy 16mm, say that you like the way it looks and then make a stand that people do care about quality while every indication from the box office is that they really don't care much at all. So who's really arguing for no reason here? :)
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Post by calgodot »

Porn is often a good example to see how things will shake out with entertainment technology. It's ahead of the game with technology (I was doing internet porn sites before Windows95 was released) and is often ahighly Darwinian world of extreme profit and loss (as well as the ultimate uselessness of government interventionin business.)

Porn used to be shot on film. In the 1980s video began to dominate adult film production. Most consumers agreed that the quality sucked. But they bought the tapes anyway. Porn sales increased, and profits went through the roof as production costs dropped.

The powerful consumer desire for pornogaphy can help drive the growth technology. Porn on video was so big that had the porn producers decided to release their titles on BetaMax, they likely could have changed the market. An entire subculture of the 'miniDV revolution' is occupied by porn entrepeneurs.

The video boom did cause a rebellion of sorts among some adult film producers. Nostalgia and a deep-rooted concern for image quality created a niche for porn connoissuers. Companies like Vivid bankroll big budget productions on film, and adult film directors like Paul Thomas have made quite a career for themselves, shooting adult material on film.

It's true that it doesn't dominate the industry, but film is still used by a few adult film auteurs. Considering that the adult film world always manages somehow to be this darkly reflected macrocosmic simulacra of Hollywood, I suspect that's the likely future of film.
"I'm the master of low expectations. I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things."—George W. Bush, June 4, 2003
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too funny

Post by super8man »

calgodot wrote:...porn connoissuers.
Great quote! I love it...I can see the high-brow old timers now, looking down their nose at something, something just a little off, "don't you see it man? Why? It's v-v-video! For C$$% sake, get that stuff out of here."

Thanks for the laugh!

Cheers,
m
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Number216

Post by Number216 »

Jan wrote:I thought 28 days later was quite beautiful in its blurriness. It fitted the movie's atmosphere. Much nicer than the high resolution but shallow look of the new star wars. i miss the 1970's anamorphic film look of the old star wars... :-)

Rodriguez made it his crusade to convince people that OUATIM looked so much better than film, has anyone seen this movie? I'm curious. I think his movies since FDTD are kind of bad.
28 Days Later was done in DV to give it the more documentary-type look, make it look like it was immediately shot. And it worked.

Studios just don't want to use anamorphics any more. They're too busy looking for ways to improve upon an extremely terrible cause, pan-and-scan. The consequence? Make our films grainier, by yet another terrible format, Super 35. (I find no logical reason for its existence)

Yes, I saw OUATIM. I liked that film (along with Desperado, and, of course, one of the cheapest films ever made, El Mariachi), and the quality? It's far from looking like film. (video artifacts aren't something rare... artifacting is the main reason why I hate shooting on video) Being the resourceful filmmaker Rodriguez is, of course he'd favor the cheaper format. (at least he avoids those ultra-ridiculous $70 million budgets that seem to be a requirement) So much better than film? If your comparison is Super 35, then the answer is very much a big yes. However, with anamorphic, it pales in comparison.

However, I remember when they did shoot anamorphic. Sorry, Mr. Lucas, but I think they look better than HDTV.

I didn't hate Star Wars E2 because it was shot on video. Just like Brandt said, the script was terrible. Lucas needs a better plot for these new SW episodes. (let's hope E3 is better)

But, generally, the audience (for the most part) doesn't really care. Just make the film good! That's all we ask! The reason why recent hand-drawn animation films flopped isn't because hand-drawn animation is outdated and all people want is CGI. It's because the films are terrible! (and Disney, I'm sure you could have made Treasure Planet for LESS than $140 million) And not all CGI films are hits. Two words: Final Fantasy.

One point of concern is the audience doesn't care so long as the film itself is good.

On the other hand, I tend to prefer film. True, it'll have artifacts when transferred to video. I like film when it's projected. There, it truly shines.
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Post by calgodot »

Number216 wrote: 28 Days Later was done in DV to give it the more documentary-type look, make it look like it was immediately shot. And it worked.
Danny Boyle chose miniDV because of its high portability and low expense. He did not have the budget to shut London down, not even for a second, so he knew he'd be doing a lot of early morning run-n-gun shooting. (And I don't think it worked at all. Postively lifeless film, and I am not making a pun. It was as if they were making a film to prove to Hollywood that DV looks so bad no one would ever want it on a big screen. It looked grimy and dirty. [Maybe this is an aesthetic choice. I guess London is kind of grimy and dirty.] I had to handcuff myself to the seat to keep from running up to the projection booth and wiping off the lens. You're better off watching a bad VHS copy of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD.)
Studios just don't want to use anamorphics any more. They're too busy looking for ways to improve upon an extremely terrible cause, pan-and-scan.
Which explains the push toward 16x9 broadcast specs for TV. Really, you are just way off base there. The future of TV is 16x9. The industry will move away from pan and scan, as it already is. Once upon a time it would be marketing suicide to release a DVD without a "full screen" version. It happens quite often now. Of course the real shlock from Hollywood gets released on crappy flippers with a full screen side. But those are for the troglodytes, the proles, the people whose hardly-earned dollars drive the film economy which makes it possible for us to have this pointless discussion.
The consequence? Make our films grainier, by yet another terrible format, Super 35. (I find no logical reason for its existence)
There's a lot of logic behind Super35: it's called marketing. (Let me ask you this: which way do you think Kodak decided to make Super8? Did they first think, let's improve the format? Or did they first think, let's figure out a way to re-market 8mm? The answer is both: some clever engineer came up with it, and a clever marketeer realized they could make a mint. Anything with "super" in the title sells. Just ask all those Hollywood DPs who act as if Super16 is some kind of gift from the gods.)
(let's hope E3 is better)
Why, after he has made two terrible movies, do people still hold out hope for Lucas? Go back and view his earlier efforts: nothing he's been in control of has stood the test of time. The best thing he's got is American Graffitti, maybe THX-1138. Lucas is a talentless hack with a propensity for telling the same story in several versions, something which grows directly from his questionable honesty. (He had no idea Star Wars would be so big, yet praises his own foresight in anticipating the money he'd make from merchandising.) If Star Wars is great cinema, then Saved by the Bell is great comedy. Everything that is wrong with cinema today can arguably be traced to Lucas and Star Wars. He is not fit to rinse the sweat stains from Kurosawa's jock strap.
The reason why recent hand-drawn animation films flopped isn't because hand-drawn animation is outdated and all people want is CGI. It's because the films are terrible! (and Disney, I'm sure you could have made Treasure Planet for LESS than $140 million) And not all CGI films are hits. Two words: Final Fantasy.
No doubt you've heard: Disney is canning its traditional animation, sending all its 2D artists to CGI school. There will be no more traditional animation from Disney.

Audiences don't know shit. The average movie goer knows more about the quality of bathroom tissue than film. We are talking about a population (in America at least) of people who elevated a giant steaming pile of turds like MY BIG FAT GREEK WEDDING to the status of new religion. You could have shot that movie on dirty VHS tapes and people still would have loved it. McDonalds doesn't serve fifty billion gourmet meals of filet mignon to customer every year.

What you get when you start thinking about the audience is crap like this. You also get great stuff like the new Russel Crowe homoerotic naval bondage epic (MASTER AND COMMANDER indeed!), a movie which just has me moist in the jeans. I can't wait to not go see that one.

Elijah Muhammed famously told Malcolm a story. If you offer a thirsty man a glass of dirty water, he'll drink it due to having no choice. But if you offer him a chocie between dirty and clean water, he'll drink the clean. The American movie audience has been drinking sewage water for decades, told its sparkling soda from the fountains in Asgard, and so now they can't tell the difference.

I propose a moratorium on this endlessly myopic conversation about film quality, digital video quality, and the size of our aesthetic penii. We'd all be better off at a Tupperware party sharing stories about our most embarassing moments.
"I'm the master of low expectations. I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things."—George W. Bush, June 4, 2003
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Post by S8 Booster »

A side note only.

The use of fast motion films combined with a desperate desire for shooting in very low light gives me the impression that film tend to look like DV.

That is:
Especially dark "indoor" images with a brownish/yellowish tint that makes the imagery look like DV shit. Exploiting one weakness of DV that is.
To me some of the forceholds of unique film images fades when film is used this way. Splendid imagery gone.

However - maybe the are preparing a "seamless" transition to DV which "no one" will notice?

My 2 riksdaler.

R
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Post by mattias »

MovieStuff wrote:What puzzles me is that you can post photos of images shot on grainy 16mm, say that you like the way it looks and then make a stand that people do care about quality
but he look of the images i posted wouldn't have worked in star wars ep2!?! accepting "low quality" isn't the same as not caring about it. as for why producers choose to shoot on hd, why don't they just use mini dv which is even cheaper if image quality doesn't matter? i guess it all lands in the good old "good enough" thing, which we oddly always agree on, so this discussion might indeed be redundant. ;-)

/matt
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Post by MovieStuff »

mattias wrote:
MovieStuff wrote:What puzzles me is that you can post photos of images shot on grainy 16mm, say that you like the way it looks and then make a stand that people do care about quality
but he look of the images i posted wouldn't have worked in star wars ep2!?!
Jeez, I dunno. Might have been an improvement. At least *something* on the screen would have had character, if only the format used. :twisted:
mattias wrote:accepting "low quality" isn't the same as not caring about it. as for why producers choose to shoot on hd, why don't they just use mini dv which is even cheaper if image quality doesn't matter? i guess it all lands in the good old "good enough" thing, which we oddly always agree on, so this discussion might indeed be redundant. ;-)


Agreed. Certainly, if I say that digital is "good enough" to suit the audience then that implies some sort of awarness that the viewing audience might revolt if things got bad enough. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that audiences don't seem to mind monumental steps backward in quality, both in terms of the writing and imagery, and that producers are milking that indifference for all it's worth.

How's that?
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Post by mattias »

MovieStuff wrote:Jeez, I dunno. Might have been an improvement. At least *something* on the screen would have had character, if only the format used.


point taken. i thought it looked great though. very computer gameish. not the kind of film i would have made, but i understand it's what lucas wanted.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that audiences don't seem to mind monumental steps backward in quality, both in terms of the writing and imagery, and that producers are milking that indifference for all it's worth.
yeah, but i'm sure they will start to mind, especially when it comes to the writing and the "interest value" of the films (i think hd is more than good enough for the screens 90% of the movies are seen at, television and small multiplex screens). what we see now is pretty much the same thing as the death of the studio system thirty years ago, which brough us a period where 90 of the 100 best film ever were made -- the late 60's to early 80's. we already see something similar happening in scandinavia, denmark and sweden especially, where budgets are made smaller and smaller while the films become better and better. i'm not talking about dogma although it was an eye opener that paved quite a few unknown roads for us.

/matt
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Post by Cranium »

If I recall my pre-cranium history correctly...

We went to color partially in opposition of TV.
We went widescreen partially in opposition of color TV.
We've enjoyed a VERY LONG time of film being vastly superior to video. Now we're at a similar moment in time. So I wonder what will be the next step in motion picture entertainment that we'll take to make it worth it for folks to go to the movies again? 3-D (again?) Immersive experience?
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Post by S8 Booster »

Cranium wrote: So I wonder what will be the next step in motion picture entertainment that we'll take to make it worth it for folks to go to the movies again? 3-D (again?) Immersive experience?
Proper sound would encourage me a lot.

R
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Post by avortex »

Regarding to the porns shot on video: I find that Mario Salieri is one of the best erotic directors in history, and he shoots always video with great results. A different aestethic to film, but it works... Paul Thomas can shoot on film, but I can't stand any of his movies. Of course, that's only my own taste... :wink:

And about "28 days later", I liked the look of it (very atmospheric for that kind of story), but the script was boring... near every single scene was a copy of George Romero's work. When I saw it at the cinema I knew what was going to happen every time.
Marc
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