REGULAR 8

[Juno]

All KAHL Film is perforated by KAHL. He has the perforators from the old ORWO Factory. The new ORWO company which produces UN54 only has the 16mm perforators.

Wittner gets his R8 from KAHL. Wittner perforates some S8 with his own equipment.

I want someone who has tried KAHL 50 color to give me an opinion about the film so I can decide about ordering. I don't have a clue.

mr8mm

John, do you know if the perforation quality is as good as Kodaks?

[mr8mm]

Kodak perforation is the gold standard. From my experience the KAHL stocks have good perforations. But are they as good as Kodak? I doubt it.

To answer a previous question. The KAHL ASA 50 color is E6. I am guessing that it is some slide stock KAHL got as a close out from some company like Agfa when they went under. But KAHL isn't talking.

J.S.

[71er]

Hi mr8mm!
I have been using Kahl 50 colour. I am very happy with the stock. If you want me to send you a still just post a message to me and I will send you an e-mail asap.

[MIKI-814]

Well, sorry about that.

Cann't change anything about it. But it is likely useful info to others.

Thought basque 'country' is in Spain and not of USA. Unlike California, New Mexico and Texas
And then there was an serious newspaper economy business article named: When the dollar turns a dime.

Of course well done, but I also thought it might be important to others to be aware of Wittner's big delivery prices before considering their catalogue, even as a complementary one to John's range of products or viceversa
Also could be interesting to the people at Wittner to know my case (which is many others' as far as I know). Right, the "Basque Country" (so called in English) is in Spain and France and not in the USA hehe, Western Europe anyway and Euro currency zone, which itself sounds even more ridiculous that I find much much cheaper buying from a country in another continent rather than from Germany. Also the weak situation of the $ compared to the € helps me a lot.

I forgot to mention that I'm shooting a lot of Fomapan 100R in R8, I like it's B/W look and is extremely cheap. I can order it easily in Spain now but if John Schwind could offer it as well, I would surely take advantge of the delivery and buy some 8)

[mr8mm]

Actually there are a lot of Basque in California. I love Basque restaurants. Lots of good food served family style. Yum!!! So, you could say California and Nevada are Basque country.

Sorry, I am used to import Foma products at a good price but when Kodak changed the B/W reversal processing, I had to stop importing because the Foma was not friendly to the new chemistry or vice versa.

J.S.

[sciolist]

Steve Randall's website is back up - http://www.bolexrepair.com/- and worth a visit for those looking for a reliable repairer of Bolex compact 8mm cameras. He stocks a nice supply of parts, too.

[Juno]

I checked their site and I came across a statement that I did not agree with so I sent theme the following e mail:

"Wind the spring motor after each shot. This will ensure the motor will run at consistent speed. Failure to do this may result in the motor reaching the end of it's wind before the shot ends. This will cause the film to be exposed slower than normal which will result in the finished film playing faster than normal. See manual."
I take issue with this statement for several reasons. One, the manual says nothing about rewinding the camera for reasons related to accurate timing. It says to rewind it so that your camera does not stop in the middle of an important scene. If you go to the Bolex collector web site, it specifically says that the camera has constant speed and is governor controlled. This means that however much you wind the camera, it will run at the desired speed for that length of time. This was all worked out in the engineering of the camera. Most good quality cameras operate like this: Bolex, Bell and Howell, etc. Also, if you are making a short film and you know how long the scene is going to be, why over wind the camera for more than the time you need for that scene? If you are making a short film, this means that you will be shooting the whole thing with a a spring motor that constantly has tension in it. This will wear the spring motor down faster than is necessary. Also, I have tested this with several cameras and for however many turns that I put in the spring motor, that is how long the motor ran at the selected speed (i.e. 1/2 turn at 24 fps will run the camera for approximately 1 second on a C8).

[sciolist]

This will wear the spring motor down faster than is necessary.

On what do you base your assertion that fully winding the motor will wear it down prematurely (I presume this is what you mean by "faster than is necessary")? Fully winding the motor is different than over winding the motor, I think you'll agree. Storing the motor fully wound might affect it adversely, but I think winding it fully in use will do no harm, especially as this is what the factory literature recommends.

[Juno]

If you are shooting a short film, that means that the motor is left not run down between scenes. So the tension is stored in the spring for longer periods of time.

[sciolist]

If you are shooting a short film, that means that the motor is left not run down between scenes. So the tension is stored in the spring for longer periods of time.

You've just restated the obvious without answering my question. You claim that winding the motor fully shortens the life of the motor, but what basis have you for making for that claim? Are you aware of cameras whose spring motors have failed because they've been fully wound after each shot? Unless one's short film takes years to complete, I can't believe the life of the motor will be shortened if the camera is fully wound after each sequence. Why would Bolex recommend that technique in their literature if it was damaging to the motor? Many of these cameras are fifty to sixty years old and they're still running fine, with the lack of fresh lubrication being the most common problem affecting them. I've owned dozens of Bolex compact 8mm cameras and have never encountered one with an 'exhausted' spring motor.

[Juno]

The Bolex guide says to rewind so that you won't be disappointed when your camera stops on the next take. It does not state this based on accurate timing. These cameras came out at a time when they were not used for making short films in the sense that we know short films to be in today's context. They were designed in a time when people used them to shoot family events. My point is, if you wind the spring motor for more than is needed for any given scene, that is over winding. Forgive me for stating the obvious but it is what it is. Let's say that a scene is about 6 seconds long. You wind the motor for 7 or 8 seconds max for good measure and for slate board action. This covers your scene. If you have a series of scenes that are all between 6 to 8 seconds long, why wind the motor every time for 23 seconds? This means that in between scenes, which could be anywhere from a few minutes to hours, the spring motor will constantly have tension in it. When the spring motor is allowed to wind down, it retains the "memory" of that position just like a rubber band. when rubber is stretched and left in that position it will become slacker the longer a period of time that it is left wound. The spring motor is a strip of metal. The more that it is flexed or the more that it is kept in a flexed position, the more it will become "fatigued" and lose it's strength. So, obviously, through continuous use of the camera this is bound to happen anyway. But if you use it economically and not over wind it when you don't need to, it will last longer.
Besides, the main issue of my post revolves around accurate timing whether you fully wind the motor or not. It should not matter! This is where the Bolex motor differs from a wound strand of rubber. The rubber does not have a governor so the speed of wind down will vary depending on how much it is wound.

[sciolist]

My point is, if you wind the spring motor for more than is needed for any given scene, that is over winding.

If you choose to work in this way, that's fine, but your claim that this technique saves the motor from harm is unsupported by any evidence.

This means that in between scenes, which could be anywhere from a few minutes to hours, the spring motor will constantly have tension in it. When the spring motor is allowed to wind down, it retains the "memory" of that position just like a rubber band. when rubber is stretched and left in that position it will become slacker the longer a period of time that it is left wound.

You keep insisting the spring motor is somehow harmed by being fully wound, but you offer no proof. If you have proof, share it (the rubber band analogy doesn't suffice as proof). I'm sure the Bolex factory would be interested to learn about the scientific tests you've conducted or can reference to support your claim. All I've heard from you so far is baseless conjecture.

[Juno]

The proof is on the very website that you made reference to. And this is one point that the owner got right. He said that if a camera is left in storage and it has not been wound down, the spring motor will need to be replaced.

[sciolist]

The proof is on the very website that you made reference to. And this is one point that the owner got right. He said that if a camera is left in storage and it has not been wound down, the spring motor will need to be replaced.

I agree with you that the motor shouldn't be left wound in storage. I said as much earlier in our exchange. You're claiming the motor shouldn't be wound fully when it's in use, and it's that claim that I've said is baseless. You've presented no convincing evidence in support of your view. Just because you've said it's so doesn't make it so.

You talk about the cameras being engineered to run at a constant speed during a wind.

This was all worked out in the engineering of the camera.

Why not give credit to the same engineers for designing a motor that can run repeatedly when fully wound? Your argument is logically inconsistent.

[Juno]

It's a shame that I have to spell out everything for you. Keeping a camera in storage for long periods of time that has not been wound down is the same as shooting short scenes with a spring motor that constantly has tension in it. If you are making a film and there are significant lapses of time between each scene, which is usually the case, then you are getting cumulative tension every time such an instance occurs. Overtime, you put more stress on the spring motor than you would if you wound the spring more or less for just enough time to cover the scene and therefore letting the motor rest between takes.