Telecine. What would you do?

[VideoFred]

How 'bout these guys? Anybody read German?
http://www.laendchen.de/

You get a syncronised projector, there.
The projector is synchronised on the DV cam output signal.
So this system is working in real time.


Fred.

[VideoFred]

We will be happy to send a demo DVD

I have your DVD and the result looks very good :lol:
If this is realy the result of a one light transfer, then your unit is the way to go for a small transfer company.

Put the film on the unit, start it, record it straight to DV tape, done.
30 minutes of film = 30 minutes work. 8)
0,50 Euro/minute should be a fair price for this.

The customer can do minor levels or other corrections in post.

The only other real time alternative is the Flashscan8.

Fred.

[MovieStuff]

If this is realy the result of a one light transfer, then your unit is the way to go for a small transfer company....

The only other real time alternative is the Flashscan8.

Clive's unit is convenient and the FlashScan is wonderful but we have also been selling our low cost real time CineMate units for over 5 years. They are flicker free, dual 8, have enlarged gates and you image directly off the emulsion. You can use a top end 3CCD SD or HD camera with them, too. They do a whole lot for very little $.... ;)

You should send in for our demo DVD, Fred!

Roger

[VideoFred]

You should send in for our demo DVD, Fred!

:oops: :oops: I send you a mail :oops: :oops:


Fred.

[VideoFred]

You should send in for our demo DVD, Fred!

:oops: :oops: I send you a mail :oops: :oops:
(I'm blushing in sync with your typo blush, hehe)


Fred.

[clivetobin]

We will be happy to send a demo DVD

I have your DVD and the result looks very good :lol:
If this is realy the result of a one light transfer, then your unit is the way to go for a small transfer company.

Put the film on the unit, start it, record it straight to DV tape, done.
30 minutes of film = 30 minutes work. 8)
0,50 Euro/minute should be a fair price for this.

The customer can do minor levels or other corrections in post.

The only other real time alternative is the Flashscan8.

Fred.

I will be happy to send a demo DVD in NTSC to anyone who might be a prospective customer for the TVT machines, and who can watch NTSC. (I don't have anything that will record PAL.)

It shows the basic operation, also the frame by frame scanning at 17.126 FPS with electronic shuttering in the new J type machine, or the 19.98 FPS conventional scanning with a 3-blade shutter (which looks a bit too fast) in the G type machine, both from some old 1952 Kodachrome.

By the way Fred, it was not a one light transfer, rather it was done in the Peak Sensing mode of automatic exposure. Video does not have enough exposure latitude to do much correction in post.

Anyone interested please email me. All I ask is that you watch it and not just use it as a coaster or for Frisbee practice. clive@webband.com

[Justin Lovell]

Hey Clive,

Thanks for posting the new info. Curious about one new thing on your new units:

frame by frame scanning at 17.126 FPS with electronic shuttering in the new J type machine

How is this possible, how can you have frame by frame scanning with a projector that uses a shutter blade? Since you'll lose the frame discretion that is noramlly achieved through true frame by frame scanning.

Very interesting, maybe I just don't understand.

[clivetobin]

Hey Clive,
...how can you have frame by frame scanning with a projector that uses a shutter blade? ....

There is no shutter blade. Talking specifically about NTSC: By using a short exposure time, with no physical shutter, it is possible to run at 17.126 FPS and do frame by frame scanning with no blending between film frames. This gives a 3-4 pulldown, where one film frame goes to 3 video fields and the next film frame goes to 4 video fields, and repeat. There is no blending between film frames. The film is pulled down to the next frame in between exposures. The pulldown of the film must of course be precisely synchronized to the video exposures, interleaved between them you might say, to prevent travel ghost or blurring. It may take a few seconds to lock into sync when you start running.

There is no physical shutter, which permits changing the number of shutter blades, in effect, to get the different speeds. At 17.126 FPS it is equivalent to using a 3-1/2 blade shutter. The other two speeds have effectively a 7 blade and 2-1/3 blade shutter.

We could also build a machine to run 24 (really 23.976) FPS as standard, using in effect a 2-1/2 blade shutter, however the slow speed would be 12 which is too slow and the 36 would be too fast for the mechanism. As on a Rank or Bosch film scanner the pulldown would be 2-3 at 24 FPS.

In all cases the pulldown is on a field basis as in a high-end scanner, not on a video frame basis which would give objectionably jerky action or strobing on the TV screen.

[VideoFred]

There is no shutter blade. Talking specifically about NTSC: By using a short exposure time, with no physical shutter, it is possible to run at 17.126 FPS and do frame by frame scanning with no blending between film frames. This gives a 3-4 pulldown, where one film frame goes to 3 video fields and the next film frame goes to 4 video fields, and repeat.

How do you synchronise?
Let me guess....
You take the output signal from the cam as a reference.
Then you need a motor with a speed signal output..
Or there is a sensor on the main axle from the unit.

Those two signals must be in sync.
You certainly have not much play room, here!!
At this speed...

I have another idea:
But first I want to say I do not have the ambition to think my ideas are better then yours or Rogers. No way! You both make fine units, ready to use. I do this because it's fun and I learn a lot from it.

It keeps my old mind young
Reminds me on my 'boys and science' period, a long time ago :lol:

OK, here we go:
Some machine vision cams are having a flash sync output.
I could use this output for synchronising the unit.
This way, it could run at the frame rate from the cam.
This frame rate can be 3.5, 7, 15... whatever. Depends on the used cam.
Machine cams are different... No PAL or NTSC, true progressive, too.
For the unit I could use a stepper motor.. or a servo motor.

I would set the cam in continue AVI modus...
But first of all I must be sure if my computer can record a 15fps 1024x768 stream without losing frames.

The result would be a progressive, frame accurate AVI file.
Recorded at high speed, but without pulldown.
Frame rate and pulldown can be done later in post.

My problem is: I need help from an electronic engineer.
Ah! But I have found one
(A retiered employee from a big very well know company)
But I can use all the advice I can get from others, too.

Fred.

[christoph]

[Some machine vision cams are having a flash sync output.
I could use this output for synchronising the unit.
This way, it could run at the frame rate from the cam.
This frame rate can be 3.5, 7, 15... whatever. Depends on the used cam.
Machine cams are different... No PAL or NTSC, true progressive, too.

hmmm, unless i missunderstood something this is exacly what my setup does. it uses a light barrier on the shutter axis to sent a trigger impuls to the camera input every turn.. is always in sync, no matter how fast you run it.

my camera need a pulse with a drop from 5V to 0V,
here's the scetch of the circuit i built (if your electronic friend could have a look at it i'm sure it can be improved, but it works for me atm)

For the unit I could use a stepper motor.. or a servo motor.

a stepper motor is more elegant and has some advantages but is more difficult to control. let me know if you find a good solution, i'm still unhappy with mine.

I would set the cam in continue AVI modus...
But first of all I must be sure if my computer can record a 15fps 1024x768 stream without losing frames.

i capture image sequences, but basically for uncompressed 8bit RGB 1024x768 you'd need:

1024x768x3/1024/1024 = 2.25 mb/frame

times 15 = 33.75 mb/sec

add 30% overhead and if your camera/ram/hd setup has a good buffer you could still nearly capture to a single modern SATA drive. to be on the safe i'd go to a raid0 of 2 disks.
obvously you could go reduce the data rate a lot if you capture to a compressed format.
++ christoph

[VideoFred]

hmmm, unless i missunderstood something this is exacly what my setup does. it uses a light barrier on the shutter axis to sent a trigger impuls to the camera input every turn.. is always in sync, no matter how fast you run it.

I mean the opposite.... hehe you missunderstood
You are triggering your camera by the projector.
You are recording stills...

I would like to trigger the projector by the camera.
Those c-cams are having a trigger input but also a flash output!
I would not record stills, but the continue video stream.
Frame rate of this stream can be set to 3,5, 7, 15 or even higher fps.

On the other hand.... I have seen on the c-cam website they are selling special cards to work together with their specific Cmos cams. With a card like this and by using the cams input trigger.. Maybe it goes very fast this way. The card has build in memory chips, for buffering the data.

But then I still have huge maps with stills and I want to avoid this.
I want speed grrrrrrrrrr :twisted:

Fred.

[christoph]

I mean the opposite.... hehe you missunderstood
You are triggering your camera by the projector.
You are recording stills...

I would like to trigger the projector by the camera.

ah i see, i got it the wrong way round ;)..
well, i guess you need much more advanced mechanics and electronics that way.

But then I still have huge maps with stills and I want to avoid this.
I want speed grrrrrrrrrr :twisted:

well, actually you can record to a continuous movie as well by triggering the camera if your software supports it... like the projector runs at around 14 fps, the software captures frame-by-frame (ie. workprinter like) but saves it out as a avi or qt file with a mapped 18fps or 24fps speed. obviously 1 minute of film will still need 1min20 or 1min40 to transfer, but it will be a true frame by frame transfer with no frame blending and no rendering needed.

then again, image sequences have a lot of advantages and since i want to apply a color correction or stabilizer anyway i will need to render it anyway, so the source can be an img sequence and the end format an 25fps QT.

++ c

[VideoFred]

well, actually you can record to a continuous movie as well by triggering the camera if your software supports it... like the projector runs at around 14 fps, the software captures frame-by-frame (ie. workprinter like) but saves it out as a avi or qt file with a mapped 18fps or 24fps speed. obviously 1 minute of film will still need 1min20 or 1min40 to transfer, but it will be a true frame by frame transfer with no frame blending and no rendering needed.

Now that would be good news for me!
But what software will do that :?:
Remember it must recognise the machine cam...
It is not the standard dv-cam protocol.
It is the industrial IIDC-1394 Digital Camera protocol.

And I bet this software still makes a temporal directory with stills.
But that's not a big problem.. we have a delete button.

Cinecap is recognising any cam on the system :lol:
But the mouse command makes it slow
Another trigger would make Cinecap so much better then it already is.

Fred.

[christoph]

Now that would be good news for me!
But what software will do that :?:
Remember it must recognise the machine cam...
It is not the standard dv-cam protocol.
It is the industrial IIDC-1394 Digital Camera protocol.

well, there's many solutions from the manufacturers of the different cameras..
since i use an old PPC for capturing my best choice was a linux application called Coriander. it's IIDC standard has a lot of nice functions and is free. if you have no experience with linux it takes a moment to get it running though (took me a few weeks on my non-standard setup :/ )

And I bet this software still makes a temporal directory with stills.

not afaik.. it will convert the image while still in ram, you can even save in YUV codecs etc. of course you'll need a reasonably fast computer to do this at 15fps with high quality that's why i capture the raw files, even my old G4 handles that easily.. plus it's good for storage (only one third of the file size)

++ christoph

[VideoFred]

.. it will convert the image while still in ram, you can even save in YUV codecs etc. of course you'll need a reasonably fast computer to do this at 15fps with high quality

Buffering the images in the computers ram, thats cool 8)
This Coriander software should run like a train on my 3ghz machine..

Linux.... Where are those manuals


Fred.