WalMart, the great saviour of small format filmmaking...

[Evan Kubota]

"Very very few. About 15 if I counted (quickly) right."

Is this supposed to be some mark of pride? Nothing's wrong with having a large DVD collection (not that mine is huge - probably 30-40 at last count).

If you bought it used, the person you're buying it from probably got it from a large discount retailer to start with :lol: That just makes you someone who pretends to avoid the 'stain' associated with buying things from 'evil capitalist megacorporations' but in reality still owns products that were purchased there. That reminds me of Roger's point about the hypocrisy buying cheap cameras on eBay that were probably purchased from the Wal-Marts of their time, or produced with exploited labor, and complaining about current mass merchants.

[monobath]

Reality is a point of view! Gallileo was almost burned at the stake for proving that the earth revolved around the sun. It was a contradiction of "reality"! Think about that.

Perception is a point of view. Reality is not. I'm busy right now. More later.

[super8man]

knew you could? What did you do?

he knew he could start a long, disruptive thread just by mentioning walmart.

he may be a troll, but he's our troll. ;)

Brings a tear to my eye to be loved so much...no, seriously, I was only mentioning that PRICE always wins over anything else in the long term (call it price darwinism) and I seriously expected a few INDY folks to say, yes, they really do help me making ends meet in my production...how silly of me to think that would be the case.

m

troll...harumph...by definition, message boards ARE trolling grounds...otherwise we would have individual conversations instead of yellow sticky bulletin boards like this one (or any really).

[S8 Booster]

trolls are great uc. ;-)

s

[monobath]

"Plus, I can dive into the $5 dvd bin and get some great, cheezy b-movies while I'm there!"

I like this DVD bin a lot. I got "Panic Room" on Superbit for $5.50 and some great kung fu 4-packs.

That's good news. After all, landfills don't fill themselves.

I mean, really... how many times do you need to see "Panic Room"?

:roll:

I do find it funny how big-box retail has so successfully convinced people they need stuff like this by making them feel they're getting a real bargain.

("I got a $15 DVD for $5!")

How proud you must be...

There you go. You claim big box stores have convinced people that they need stuff by making them feel like they got a good deal. You want to tell people they don't need it, and try top convince them by invoking the guilt-horror of the landfill. What's the difference?

I know. Your view factors in social justice and environmental morality, the religion of the left. Why not try to pass a law. There are already so many copies of Panic Room out there that surely no one needs to buy another one. They can shop second hand, or grab a copy off Kazaa, right?

The truth is, some folks want to watch Panic Room, maybe even more than once, and they'd rather pay $5 than $15. Or they'd rather pay $5 at Wal-Mart since they're going there anyway, instead of driving to Pre-Owned CD and DVD Warehouse Heaven to buy a used copy for $5.

Aren't you at least happy that they're reducing emissions and saving gas by driving less?

[monobath]

"Plus, I can dive into the $5 dvd bin and get some great, cheezy b-movies while I'm there!"

I like this DVD bin a lot. I got "Panic Room" on Superbit for $5.50 and some great kung fu 4-packs.

That's good news. After all, landfills don't fill themselves.

I mean, really... how many times do you need to see "Panic Room"?

:roll:

I do find it funny how big-box retail has so successfully convinced people they need stuff like this by making them feel they're getting a real bargain.

("I got a $15 DVD for $5!")

How proud you must be...

When one of your films makes it big and people decide they want to watch it maybe once or twice, will you stipulate that the distributor exclude Wal-Mart and other big-boxes from selling it? Maybe only allow distribution through certified small-time local Mom-and-Pop stores? How about just foregoing compensation for it, and giving it away for free on the web? Recognition is payment enough. Who needs money?

[monobath]

"Plus, I can dive into the $5 dvd bin and get some great, cheezy b-movies while I'm there!"

I like this DVD bin a lot. I got "Panic Room" on Superbit for $5.50 and some great kung fu 4-packs.

That's good news. After all, landfills don't fill themselves.

I mean, really... how many times do you need to see "Panic Room"?

:roll:

I do find it funny how big-box retail has so successfully convinced people they need stuff like this by making them feel they're getting a real bargain.

("I got a $15 DVD for $5!")

How proud you must be...

Have you ever bought something because you just wanted it? Do you argue with your anti-capitalist consciousness first to make sure it is a pure need and environmentally justifiable acquisition, obtained from an socially moral establishment?

There are millions of children's toys and hand-me-down clothes out there. It would surely be more socially responsible to reuse existing products than to buy new. Think of the social costs of new production! Think of it when you go to the bathroom too. There is sufficient newsprint out there to make the purchase of toilet paper socially irresponsible.

[Evan Kubota]

"I seriously expected a few INDY folks to say, yes, they really do help me making ends meet in my production...how silly of me to think that would be the case."

It really does help my production budget Without Wal-Mart's processing service, my lab fees would nearly triple. I realize on a decent sized production lab fees and film costs are a minuscule part of the budget (as in less than 1%, at least on the film I worked on), but for me it's a significant expenditure. Thanks, Wal-Mart and Dwayne's.

Ccortez - you *do* realize that the DVDs you buy also support stores that exist because of capitalism? I find all of this sermonizing very hard to swallow considering that nearly everyone living 'on the grid', so to speak, ends up purchasing many things on a day-to-day basis from merchants operating in a capitalist economy. If you're part of it, and your hard-earned dollars support it, either stop pumping money into it or stop bitching about it. It makes you look less than upright.

[monobath]

When you use True Cost Accounting practices, you'll see Wal-Mart actually costs us more in the long run.

With the influx of cheap Chinese products, this truly affects the American economy and its dollar value. We still don't know the TRUE value of Chinese currency, but one thing is for sure and that's the true cost of such cheap product mega stores is not being taken into account when paying those low everyday prices. There is always a cost and a True cost which is often overlooked or not accounted for specific reasons.

Save now, but rest assured you'll pay later!

Lay it out for us, chachi, will you? Give a practical example or two, please.

[monobath]

"I mean, really... how many times do you need to see "Panic Room"?

I do find it funny how big-box retail has so successfully convinced people they need stuff like this by making them feel they're getting a real bargain.

("I got a $15 DVD for $5!")"

I never said I *need* anything. You have a real gift for misconstruing the words that people write. Do you own any DVDs? Why not pay less? I have my fair share of Criterion DVDs but I enjoy getting a good deal when it comes around.

Hey, careful here Evan. This is a perfect situation for you to practice a moment of reflection and respond with considered thought.

Since I am both a DVD collector and concerned about the overwhelming abundance of consumer waste we are producing as a planet, I read ccortez' post with interest. I think what he was addressing was the proliferation of associated refuse material in these retailers efforts at "creating" need for superfluous consumer junk.

Tim

Tim, I've been accused of arrogance. I don't remember if that was you or Steve. But this is an example of unbridled arrogance on your part. That you and ccortez believe that your own personal tastes and perceptions and judgements are so bell-ringing clear, right, and proper, that you know what constitutes superfluous consumer junk.

The very idea that the buying and selling choices of others are yours to judge is odious, arrogant, and disgusting.

[chachi]

monobath, I hardly see the point in elaborating in what will most certainly be a heated discussion with you by "laying it out". Especially since I know you don't share my political views. After all, you were the one who said my Live8 thread was too political to discuss here and should be discussed elsewhere, which by the way I did agree was the proper thing to do.

Yet, here we are arguing Social political things in a 13pg thread started by one super8man.

By the way thanks mike!:D

Anyhoo, I am open to both sides of the argument as I tend to live in the middle (that's the grey area) and not on either extremes of the wacky political spectrum that sees only black & white left & right and nothing in between!

I was merely trying to point out that the true costs of these types of convenient mega stores are rarely ever considered by the masses. Now, I realize you yourself consider such things as social costs for example, to be merely "Lefty religion".

I will therefore only provide the usual lazy man links to examples of such true costs I speak of since I have not the energy for the kind of long quote, cut and pasting such as is in this particular thread...

Ok a couple quotes for those that are tired and won't click the links, (mind you there not the most relevant) but maybe they'll help get us over to the 14th pg faster!

"What’s the matter with Wal-Mart? Consider these facts:

* Wal-Mart fails to cover 60% of their workers with any health insurance
* 70% of Wal-Mart merchandise is from China
* When Wal-Mart comes to town, for every two jobs it creates three jobs are lost

The way Wal-Mart runs its business has accelerated the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing jobs overseas, lowered working standards at home and shifted the burden of caring for their employees to U.S. taxpayers. Wal-Mart’s low prices have come at a high cost:

* Wal-Mart costs federal taxpayers over $1.5 billion a year in welfare to their employees
* Wal-Mart tops the list of companies with employees and their dependents on public assistance in at least 11 states
* Wal-Mart has agreed to pay $4.1 million in Clean Water Act violations and $50 million to settle allegations of underpaying employees"

" "At least 85 percent of Wal-Mart products are made overseas, most of those in China, under sweatshop conditions, by workers, mostly women, who lack the right to organize," Featherstone writes. A November 2004 article in China Business Weekly states that more than 70 percent of commodities sold by Wal-Mart are made in China.

Wal-Mart now has forty stores in China. In 2004, the company hosted its board of directors meeting in Shenzhen. Frontline went into the Chinese factories and filmed the workers doing the work that used to be done in factories across the U.S. But the Chinese workers make about fifty cents an hour. Factory workers who made $50,000 a year (including overtime) couldn't compete with Chinese workers."



http://walmartwatch.com/home/pages/annual_report_2005

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_n8698182

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib ... rpade.html

http://www.brandchannel.com/view_comments.asp?dc_id=46

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/lowwage/walmart.pdf

Again, the true cost of building huge cheap labour forces in China is dangerous and will have even more consequences then the loss of American Jobs, that info isn't exactly hiding is it?

The United States Government themselves have stated that they beleive China has not been forthcoming about their currencies true value. This will most certainly have an effect on the US economy in years to come. sort of like Japans manufacturing did in the 80's.. Regan certainly saw this problem..

:o 8O :? 8) :lol: :oops: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :?: :idea: :arrow:

By the way, Thanks too the above emoticons for helping to save us all from certain war!

[Evan Kubota]

"* 70% of Wal-Mart merchandise is from China"

Is anything inherently wrong with that?

"* When Wal-Mart comes to town, for every two jobs it creates three jobs are lost "

Any quantitative data?

"The way Wal-Mart runs its business has accelerated the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing jobs overseas, lowered working standards at home and shifted the burden of caring for their employees to U.S. taxpayers. Wal-Mart’s low prices have come at a high cost:"

Conjecture.

"* Wal-Mart costs federal taxpayers over $1.5 billion a year in welfare to their employees"

This is an interesting quote. It seems quite likely that those employees would require more welfare if they weren't working at Wal-Mart. Also, if someone working a normal job at a store like Wal-Mart receives government money, the maximum income for welfare needs to be revised.

One thing that does concern me is Wal-Mart's reported practice of hiring illegal immigrants as outside contractors to clean the stores during off-hours. However, many other businesses do the same thing, even some government-owned ones :roll:

There's definitely something to be said for a place where you can get epoxy, DVDs/video games, DV tapes, K40 processing, and guns all under one roof. That convenience is the root of Wal-Mart's success, not just low prices.

I notice one of your links is from 'laborcenter.berkeley.edu'. Are we supposed to take that as a legitimate source?

[MovieStuff]

Wal-Mart fails to cover 60% of their workers with any health insurance

This was brought up before and I asked the same question then: What were these people doing for insurance before they worked at Walmart? If they were working at another low paying job that had benefits, why would they leave to work a different low paying job without benefits at Walmart? The answer is that they probably didn't have insurance or a job. So the real issue that bugs some people is simply that Walmart makes too damn much money, relative to how they compensate their workers. I don't mind if someone wants to honestly argue that position, but leave the whole healthcare nonsense out of the equation because it isn't really the argument being argued. But adopting the healthcare argument just strikes an easier, more sympathetic cord with the public than taking on the much harder argument about just compensation for an unskilled worker that most of the very same public wouldn't even let into their home. This is not a judgement of the hard working Walmart worker but, rather, a judgement of the hypocritical American public that the Healthcare argument is supposed to impress through sophistic bait-and-switch. I don't buy into it because I have been self-employed, with and without healthcare, for the better part of my adult life. Healthcare is available through alternate routes and the more money you have, the better health care one can afford. The real argument should be about how expensive health care is; not who is required to provide something that expensive for free.

70% of Wal-Mart merchandise is from China

This bothers me but for a different reason. I am simply tired of cheap, Chinese made crap that is being introduced to replace the better made Japanese crap that I used to get, even though it cost a bit more. So much for the "surplus value" theory. I guess there is a difference between "value" and "quality". Didn't used to be that way. In electronics, 've now started seeing Korean knock offs of Chinese knock offs that used to be made in Japan after they stopped making them in the US. That's like, what, a fourth generation knock-off? Sheesh.....

When Wal-Mart comes to town, for every two jobs it creates three jobs are lost

I would argue that is not always true. Virtually every Walmart I have ever seen was in an area that had little in the way of employment opportunities for unskilled labor and even less in the way of the types of goods and services that Walmart provides (such as they are). Don't get me wrong, I realllllly do not like how Walmarts change the landscape of a neighborhood but it is always easier to adopt the "people losing jobs" argument than it is to suggest a Walmart shouldn't be built simply because it's tacky and no one wants to live near it.

Now, having said all that, Walmart has some very serious issues regarding child labor law violations that really bother me, as well as some gender descrimination issues that seem, on the surface, to be valid. I just wish people would argue what they're really saying instead of using smoke and mirror tactics. I think a lot more would get accomplished if they did.

Roger

[monobath]

monobath, I hardly see the point in elaborating in what will most certainly be a heated discussion with you by "laying it out". Especially since I know you don't share my political views. After all, you were the one who said my Live8 thread was too political to discuss here and should be discussed elsewhere, which by the way I did agree was the proper thing to do.

Yet, here we are arguing Social political things in a 13pg thread started by one super8man.

The Live8 thread was primarily political in nature and bore no relation to Super 8, besides the "8", or to filmshooting. This thread is primarily an economic discussion, and Wal-Mart is an important provider of choice of many people on this forum for film processing. Big difference, and thus relevant.

Anyhoo, I am open to both sides of the argument as I tend to live in the middle (that's the grey area) and not on either extremes of the wacky political spectrum that sees only black & white left & right and nothing in between!

I do not side with the traditional left nor the right. That entire spectrum is statist, with authoritarian ideas predominating at either extreme. My personal philosophy values the rights of the individual above all, and stands in opposition to a monopoly on coercion, whether wielded by the state or by a stateless socialist proletariat worker's collective or some similar product of hive mentality. (Note: The provocative content of this comment has been modified by an appropriate and relevant emoticon to reduce the inflammatory impact.)

I'm just as opposed to any anti-competitive coercive monopoly maintained by any provider of goods and services, whether public or private. To the extent that Wal-Mart may be guilty of this, I oppose them.

I was merely trying to point out that the true costs of these types of convenient mega stores are rarely ever considered by the masses. Now, I realize you yourself consider such things as social costs for example, to be merely "Lefty religion".

I don't know if I would necessarily regard it as lefty religion. I haven't seen any examples of "true cost accounting". It depends on what you factor in to the cost equation, the validity of the premise on which it is based, and whether or not it is truly quantifiable and can be supported with verifiable evidence, as opposed to the fallacy of appeal to emotion. Come to think of it, any concept that has to distinguish itself by adding the term "true" to it does have a religious air of sorts.

I'm familiar with the economic concepts of historical costs and opportunity costs. What is the economic foundation of "true" costs? That's what I'm really asking, and I thought that examples might make it easier to discuss.

I will therefore only provide the usual lazy man links to examples of such true costs I speak of since I have not the energy for the kind of long quote, cut and pasting such as is in this particular thread...

Ok a couple quotes for those that are tired and won't click the links, (mind you there not the most relevant) but maybe they'll help get us over to the 14th pg faster!

"What’s the matter with Wal-Mart? Consider these facts:

* Wal-Mart fails to cover 60% of their workers with any health insurance
* 70% of Wal-Mart merchandise is from China
* When Wal-Mart comes to town, for every two jobs it creates three jobs are lost

The way Wal-Mart runs its business has accelerated the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing jobs overseas, lowered working standards at home and shifted the burden of caring for their employees to U.S. taxpayers. Wal-Mart’s low prices have come at a high cost:

* Wal-Mart costs federal taxpayers over $1.5 billion a year in welfare to their employees
* Wal-Mart tops the list of companies with employees and their dependents on public assistance in at least 11 states
* Wal-Mart has agreed to pay $4.1 million in Clean Water Act violations and $50 million to settle allegations of underpaying employees"

" "At least 85 percent of Wal-Mart products are made overseas, most of those in China, under sweatshop conditions, by workers, mostly women, who lack the right to organize," Featherstone writes. A November 2004 article in China Business Weekly states that more than 70 percent of commodities sold by Wal-Mart are made in China.

Wal-Mart now has forty stores in China. In 2004, the company hosted its board of directors meeting in Shenzhen. Frontline went into the Chinese factories and filmed the workers doing the work that used to be done in factories across the U.S. But the Chinese workers make about fifty cents an hour. Factory workers who made $50,000 a year (including overtime) couldn't compete with Chinese workers."



http://walmartwatch.com/home/pages/annual_report_2005

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_n8698182

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib ... rpade.html

http://www.brandchannel.com/view_comments.asp?dc_id=46

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/lowwage/walmart.pdf

Again, the true cost of building huge cheap labour forces in China is dangerous and will have even more consequences then the loss of American Jobs, that info isn't exactly hiding is it?

The United States Government themselves have stated that they beleive China has not been forthcoming about their currencies true value. This will most certainly have an effect on the US economy in years to come. sort of like Japans manufacturing did in the 80's.. Regan certainly saw this problem..

:o 8O :? 8) :lol: :oops: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :?: :idea: :arrow:

By the way, Thanks too the above emoticons for helping to save us all from certain war!

I won't address your bulleted points up above because Roger and Evan already did. I will read your links, though.

[monobath]

When Wal-Mart comes to town, for every two jobs it creates three jobs are lost

I would argue that is not always true. Virtually every Walmart I have ever seen was in an area that had little in the way of employment opportunities for unskilled labor and even less in the way of the types of goods and services that Walmart provides (such as they are).

Roger, do I recall you saying that you moved out to the lovely area of Uvalde or Hondo or Leaky or thereabouts, near the Frio river in the country of 1100 springs, water source of the famous former Pearl Brewery of San Antonio? Y'all have any Wal-Mart out there? Got beer?

Many Wal-Mart's are located in areas that have little in the way of other employment opportunities, but they are also all over the rich job-market landscape of the DFW area, as well. Don't you have Wal-Mart in Houston?

Regardless, Wal-Mart employs people who might not otherwise be employed, even in markets where comparable job opportunities abound.

Now, having said all that, Walmart has some very serious issues regarding child labor law violations that really bother me, as well as some gender descrimination issues that seem, on the surface, to be valid. I just wish people would argue what they're really saying instead of using smoke and mirror tactics. I think a lot more would get accomplished if they did.

Agreed!