WalMart, the great saviour of small format filmmaking...

[super8man]

10 pages!!!! Y-E-S!

I knew I could

I knew I could

I knew I could

I knew I could

10 Pages...a new record? I love it!

[JCook]

Again, you are simply saying over and over that you see inequality in capitalism. So do I sometimes. What is it that we are supposed to prove you wrong about? More to the point, what are you trying to convince us of?

He's trying to convinve us that he's a Democrat. But then again, this is a film forum, so I guess that goes for the majority of you.

I can't believe this thread has gone this long, it's like listening to Howard Stern, many hate the man and his content but they keep listening to see what's said next......ah the glory of capitalism.

....donning flame retardant suit....

[monobath]

Steve,

Roger has already identified and very capably and eloquently addressed what apperas to be your principal underlying problem with Capitalism. I'll add my own perspective, and respond to some of your other assertions.

Yes, indeed, with out a doubt, I see something inherently wrong with inequality. Let me be pefectly clear about that. Let me just say one thing about the American project. For it to be just this assumption must be kept intact: ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.

Look, I don't think standards of living are improving "all over the world" perhaps in isolated pockets. The "gap" widening is a fact. It is a fact in the United States and it is a fact world wide. I'm arguing capitalism is encouraging the widening of this gap.

Look, I have tried to focus my argument on one fact: Capitalism relies on inequal divisions of labor. I'm critical of the capitalist mode of production explicitly for this reason. I believe inequality is antithetical to social justice.

Nearly all of your arguments and comments center around the supposed iniquity and inequity of inequality, especially economic inequality, but also social or moral inequality. That is an egalitarian perspective.

There are many forms of egalitarianism. The United States Declaration of Independence claims that all men are created equal. In the context of that document, the claim expresses both a moral and a democratic type of egalitarianism. Moral, in that all men have the same rights, and democratic, in that all are equal before the law. You said something similar above, but I infer from your other arguments that your position includes the economic sense too.

I don't know if you recognize or consider yourself a socialist, but economic egalitarianism is a fundamental lynchpin of all forms of socialism. You've referred to Karl Marx in support of your ideas, and Marxism is a form of socialism that was envisioned as a successor to capitalism. Is this what you mean by post-capitalism? I'm very interested in hearnig your views on what sort of political and economic system you would consider ideal. I can help you identify the form of socialism most closely aligned with your views. I'd be happy to.

Some of the things that you and others have said remind me of democratic (aka welfare state) socialism. That would be more in keeping with a US political upbringing. (I've observed that quite a few people on this board regularly express socialist ideas, so you are not alone.)

It happens that I'm a political egalitarian. I think everyone should be equal in political power. Of course, since I'm also a type of libertarian (an anarcho-capitalist), I think that the amount of equal political power should be zero, and there should be no "state" at all. That is a radically individualist philosophy, as opposed to a socialist philosophy.

Hence, I'm not hung up on the idea that humans must be equal in every sense. Clearly, humans are not all equals in physical and mental attributes and capabilities. Nor are they all equal in will or ambition. Nor are they all endowed with the same opportunities. Reality is what it is, not what we think it should be.

[monobath]

No, capitalism is not based on inequality. Accumulation of wealth is a consequence of the vehicle by which capitalism operates. What capitalism operates on (in pure terms) is freedom of choice. In other words, the liberty of people who exercise their rights to make their own decisions about what to make or buy. Demand creates a market, producers compete to supply a product, prices are tied to that balance.

Again, you assume a level playing field. Freedom of choice? What about people who have less choices because their family found themselves on the wrong side of the Atlantic in the 19th century!!! Remember the brilliant quote that Chirs Cortez used as a signature for a while:

"The past is never dead, it is not even past". That my friends, is important to think about.

I do not assume a level playing field. Not everyone has the same opportunities or range of choices, because people are NOT equal. Not in physical or mental attributes, will or ambition, or situation and opportunity. That has nothing to do with my comment. Capitalism operates on freedom of choice. Equality of choice is irrelevant.

It seems as though you find something inherently wrong with inequality. I don't, but more to the point, capitalism has the ability to distribute wealth among individuals more justly and fairly than other economic systems because it rewards each individual's ability and effort. Few things provide better incentive to people to sharpen their skills and increase their efforts than profit. Communism, socialism, and feudalism can't do this because people under those economic systems are not permitted to benefit directly from their efforts to enhance productivity and profits.

Yes, indeed, with out a doubt, I see something inherently wrong with inequality. Let me be pefectly clear about that. Let me just say one thing about the American project. For it to be just this assumption must be kept intact: ALL HUMANS ARE CREATED EQUAL.

People are equal in their right to self-determination, and nothing else. Mind you, I am not saying that everyone has equal opportunity for self-determination. Someone born into slavery has practically none. Only that they have an equal right, and injustice occurs when others interfere with someone elses right to self-determination. All government is immoral for this reason.

Thus, coercion of the sort that would force employers to pay a "living wage" or a legal minimum wage, or to supply health insurance, or to pay other unearned and non-voluntarily agreed upon compensation for labor, or to make social services available merely because someone happens to exist (welfare, for example), is immoral.

Equal rights to self-determination does not imply a right to equal distribution of wealth. Wealth belongs to those who are capable of earning it. If you take it from them and give it to someone who had no part in earning it, you are committing a grave injustice.

[monobath]

10 pages!!!! Y-E-S!

I knew I could

I knew I could

I knew I could

I knew I could

10 Pages...a new record? I love it!

Surely this thread doesn't beat the long animal products thread in which someone who described himself as a vegan argued against using film because the gelatin in the emulsion comes from cows.

[MovieStuff]

....donning flame retardant suit....

No need here. Steve, Monobath and I all respect each other and are having a great time. Steve and I may be having a disagreement but we're having fun. He's wrong, of course, ;) but I would never consider flaming someone that puts that much thought into his post.

10 pages!!!! Y-E-S!

I knew I could

I knew I could

I knew I could

I knew I could

10 Pages...a new record? I love it!

Surely this thread doesn't beat the long animal products thread in which someone who described himself as a vegan argued against using film because the gelatin in the emulsion comes from cows.

Oh, man! Yes that was very funny. Fretting away about the fate of the cows on a keyboard made from pertoleum products. You gotta love it....

I have to admit all the flavor may have been chewed out out this particular piece of gum. I have nothing else really to add that I haven't repeated myself ad nasuem. Gee. Steve's right. I AM getting boring......

Roger

[monobath]

I wouldn't mind moving on from this topic too, but I'll be happy to discuss it as long as anyone else is willing. I do miss my darkroom, though.

[super8man]

Ah yes, I stand corrected, that was a crazy thread about how some filmaker had a problem with cows and chemicals and celluoid...

Well, today I am off to Walmart to drop off my S8 film. I'll try not to disturb anything else in the store while I am leaving...

[steve hyde]

....yes, it is always fun to argue with Libertarians. I wish I had more time to argue about political economy. I guess I don't have to convince a Libertarian that political activism is rooted in singularity of voice.

Monobath - I am interested to hear where you would place me in your taxonomy of political views. I always end up in the lower left corner of these things. I disdain authoritarianism too.

I also disdain capitalism in its contemporary form, which is characterized by accumulation by dissposession. Roger, has made it clear that he does not see how inequality is inherent to capitalism and Monobath has acknowledged that it is, but there is nothing wrong with that - because that is "reality".

Reality is a point of view! Gallileo was almost burned at the stake for proving that the earth revolved around the sun. It was a contradiction of "reality"! Think about that.

Before we move on from this discussion and go back into the dark
I'd like to recommend a book that I think you guys will find interesting and frankly, I could use a bit of help interpreting the content. It would be fun to discuss in the forum or over email.

The book is:

"The New Imperialism" by David Harvey , Oxford University Press, 2005
http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-927808-3

Another book that has influenced my thinking is:

"Empire" by Hardt and Negri, Harvard University Press, 2001

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/HAREMI.html

As you may have noticed, I am someone who listens to the "left". These are probably two of the most significant new books to emerge from the leftist school of thought in the 21st century.

What are you guys reading? .... I'm off line for a while. Thanks for expressing your views.

Steve

[steve hyde]

10 pages!!!! Y-E-S!

I knew I could

I knew I could

I knew I could

I knew I could

10 Pages...a new record? I love it!

new you could? What did you do?

Steve

[wahiba]

Not sure what this has to do with Walmart/Asda in UK except that life is the survival of the fittest. Communism, capitalism, egalitariansim or whatever ism you want to think of. Basis Darwinian theory applies to them all, without exception.

In terms of Walmart, boy, they were going to show us Limeys how it is done. A lot of people over here thought so as well. So far life is not so simple, which if they had read their history of US retailers in the UK (Woolworths and Safeways) they might have realised that the local barrow boys(Tescos, Sainsburys, Morrisons etc.) were not going to roll over.

[ccortez]

knew you could? What did you do?

he knew he could start a long, disruptive thread just by mentioning walmart.

he may be a troll, but he's our troll. ;)

[steve hyde]

Not sure what this has to do with Walmart/Asda in UK except that life is the survival of the fittest. Communism, capitalism, egalitariansim or whatever ism you want to think of. Basis Darwinian theory applies to them all, without exception.

In terms of Walmart, boy, they were going to show us Limeys how it is done. A lot of people over here thought so as well. So far life is not so simple, which if they had read their history of US retailers in the UK (Woolworths and Safeways) they might have realised that the local barrow boys(Tescos, Sainsburys, Morrisons etc.) were not going to roll over.

....oh no, not the Social Darwinists!!! Let's keep Darwinian evolution theory out of socio-economic and political affairs. Human beings have a fascinating capacity called compassion. Have you ever reached your hand out to someone who was down? Darwin didn't deal with that did he. Social Darwinism has been used as justification for genocide. Let's not just accept Mr. Darwin's science as universal truth. Science is a social project used for social ends and people twist the facts to mean what ever they want them to mean.

Steve

[Billbot]

This is great news!

Walmart is great! It is convenient for dropping off film, and I love the low, low price! It's the next best thing to the pre-paid mailer.

Plus, I can dive into the $5 dvd bin and get some great, cheezy b-movies while I'm there!

It makes s8 just that much more fun!

Thank God in Heaven for Walmart!

[wahiba]

[quote="steve hydeLet's not just accept Mr. Darwin's science as universal truth. Steve[/quote]
But it is.

Compassion and sacrifice are just two mechanisms to ensure continuation of the species.