Converting projector to scanner questions

[Simon Lucas]

I have dabbled with DIY frame by frame scanning of Super 8 and 16mm for some time now, when I first started I modified a Chinon Super 8 projector, but in the end I just found there was too much to do to the projector, the old AC motor need to be changed, the gate needed to be enlarged, the shutter disk need to be removed and then I found getting a decent diffused light source and micro-switch too tricky to fit in. I decided to build a simple film channel - a new enlarged gate that is kinder and gentler to film, I had a gate machined out of aluminium and I illuminated the frame by a simple LED light taken from a Veho film scanner. I used various machine vision cameras but earlier this year I started to experiment with CSC (compact system cameras - mirror-less) that have lens inter-changeability and use a Schneider S Componon 50mm enlarger lens [reverse mounted], I have found the results pretty good, each film frame is saved as a JPEG or in RAW on the cameras SD card. It’s a simple and easy set up and it’s great not having to tie up the computer during transfers too.

Pav

Hi Pav, I've seen your website once before. I was intrigued, but lost track of it – so glad you have posted here. I read before that you were using the Samsung NEX mini as a capture device whilst I was researching cameras with electronic shutters to be used for frame grabbing.

I'd be interested to hear more about how your system works. I have looked at the photographs but cannot workout how the film is advanced and positioned accurately at each step.

Also, why do you think a global shutter is important? And doesn't this usually exclude CMOS sensors, such as used in the Samsung NEX mini?

You state, on your site, that the material you scan is used for preview purposes. So, my last question (for now) is, why you think professional scanning is still preferable to using your own system?

[milesandjules]

The hardest thing we found with our hacked projectors…was getting the video camera lens close enough to focus on the film. Have you worked out how to do that on your projector?

In the end I got an old yashica projector that stood upright with the film above and below the gate and removed all the back of it…so i could get the lens in close enough to film the gate.

If you get your hands on a panasonic gh4 (i love it a lot) it has a synchronise shutter function that will remove projector shutter flicker perfectly so you can shoot in realtime this is especially good if you have to transfer sound film. Then all it need is an adjustable Chinese macro lens holder off ebay and a standard 35mm film still camera 50mm lens and appropriate adaptors and you ready to roll. Next battle is enlarging the gate without scratching the film or hindering the film movement (because it is cropped). Then you just need a led backlit white tube that goes where the projector lens was and your set.

But its still a pain in the arse to do all this and you can spend months /years perfecting it. Thats why we got a retro 8 from Roger ..which we love to.

Its always fun to experiment with old and new technology so good luck with your build.

[Simon Lucas]

The hardest thing we found with our hacked projectors…was getting the video camera lens close enough to focus on the film. Have you worked out how to do that on your projector?

In the end I got an old yashica projector that stood upright with the film above and below the gate and removed all the back of it…so i could get the lens in close enough to film the gate.

If you get your hands on a panasonic gh4 (i love it a lot) it has a synchronise shutter function that will remove projector shutter flicker perfectly so you can shoot in realtime this is especially good if you have to transfer sound film. Then all it need is an adjustable Chinese macro lens holder off ebay and a standard 35mm film still camera 50mm lens and appropriate adaptors and you ready to roll. Next battle is enlarging the gate without scratching the film or hindering the film movement (because it is cropped). Then you just need a led backlit white tube that goes where the projector lens was and your set.

But its still a pain in the arse to do all this and you can spend months /years perfecting it. Thats why we got a retro 8 from Roger ..which we love to.

Its always fun to experiment with old and new technology so good luck with your build.

Good to hear your experiences and thanks for the encouragement.

At the moment I am using an Fujimoto Lucky enlarger head to scan single frames at around 3k. I project the image using a 50mm into the dSLR. The SLR has no lens. The bellows of the enlarger allow me to focus. The distance between the SLR's sensor and the lens give me the magnification. From what I see this works in the opposite way to the people who are frame-scanning with machine vision cameras. In their case they have a camera body->bellows->lens set-up. The lens is inverted to act as a macro.

What i am not clear of is whether people leave the projector lens in place whilst scanning.

Can you advise on enlarging the gate? 'without scratching or hinder'. What is hindering the film.

I'm not clear how the GH4 synchronises but have seen someone using one over at cinematography.com forum. In their case they project into the camera and use an unusual projector frame rate to sync to the camera's 25fps rate. They then use software to remove duplicate frames.

I want to scan single frame so I can adjust in Photoshop and also because single frames somehow feels that it retains the most natural link to the source material, when thinking about film that has been digitised.

[milesandjules]

Cool watch out for dust when your lens is off. I would shove a clear filter over it if you haven't already. I did try that on the gh4 but was to scared of dust. if your projecting the image onto the chip of your camera then I guess you would have to use the projector lens. But I think the best way is to have a bellows and macro on the camera and no projector lens…..it can just be tricky fitting the macro it in there…but if you have that worked out then your half way there.

I think most people file the gate down with baby metal files or motored dremel tool…its only 0.5mm to 1mm or so that needs to come off. But it does crop a fair bit of image and the sprocket hole of the film. I have a projector that I love and I'm to afraid to file its gate down. but some projectors like the yashica has a gate section that completely comes out so that was easy.

By hindering the film... i mean making the film not travel properly through the gate. I know slrs are cheap now but remember you will only get an hour and a half of still images out of any slr before it dies….with our stop motion film we shot 120k frames on a nikon d70 before it died. Most pro cameras are rated for 150k.

Thats one of reasons the pana gh4 is good when shooting stills/scanning…it has a silent mode so then it only shoots with a digital shutter so less to break.

For scanning, most people talk about micro switches that physically click for each frame….I could never get then to last for very long and they make the projector shake and wobble. I ended up using the clear class reed switch (ebay) with a 3mm wide super strong magnet( ebay) to trigger the camera/mouse switch.

The gh4 has a sync function for getting rid of monitor lines and fluro lighting flicker….it works well for telecine but only in avhc 50i mode …that way you don't get cmos jelly wobble effect. Scanning is better and higher res. but more projector hacking and mega hard drive storage involved.

[Pj]

Here’s a close up of the mechanism, it’s normally covered to get a clear and even light which is not contaminated by the room light. There is a simple claw taken from a 16mm toy projector, the gate is simple, it's new and has been machined out of aluminium and anodized in black, the aperture is for Super 16. The claw brings the frame and then rubs against the micro-switch which is connected to the camera’s remote.

I am not much of an expert when it comes to the industrial cameras that can be used for capture. In my experience the Mightex camera’s picture quality wasn’t great, it is a CMOS sensor, [but that could be down to the settings I used it on], the TIS camera does have a CCD and I felt the picture was superior, the Point and Grey is CCD and in my opinion isn’t as good as the TIS. On all my cameras I used the same enlarger lens reverse mounted - Schneider S Componon 50mm. The Mightex is the easiest to set up and use it also has much simpler software, but all machine vision cameras require the computer.

My experiments using a compact digital picture taking camera started by accident when I used my digital camera to copy some 110 and 35mm negatives. I was surprised and amazed with the final results so I used my digital camera for some 16 negative [just stills], in my opinion the quality was better than the industrial cameras that I had used, there was more clarity, depth and no pixilation and so I started building my scanner to be used with a compact digital camera.

Now that I’ve scanned more film with my scanner and have made modifications mainly to stabilize the scanner and dealing with negative film I feel my 16mm scans are as good as my professional scans especially when watching the films side by side on a 50 inch TV screen. For more stability I have put the unit flat rather than standing up as you can see on my website. To transfer negative film easily I have experimented with various gels and filters placed on the backlight, in the end I made my own filter, I scanned some negative film, I then inverted it in Photoshop and printed in on clear acetate, I use this as a filter. I have been so impressed by the results that I haven’t had my recent stuff scanned by the lab.

Pav

[Simon Lucas]

Cool watch out for dust when your lens is off. I would shove a clear filter over it if you haven't already. I did try that on the gh4 but was to scared of dust. if your projecting the image onto the chip of your camera then I guess you would have to use the projector lens. But I think the best way is to have a bellows and macro on the camera and no projector lens…..it can just be tricky fitting the macro it in there…but if you have that worked out then your half way there.

I'm working horizontally with the enlarger. I'm only doing a few frames and then stick the lens back on. I had to clean the sensor when I got the camera, so I'm OK at the moment.

A sealed camera-lens unit makes sense - using the belows. My thoughts are with your about removing the projector lens - as this would mirror the way the enlarger works. One lens between the film and sensor.

I think most people file the gate down with baby metal files or motored dremel tool…its only 0.5mm to 1mm or so that needs to come off. But it does crop a fair bit of image and the sprocket hole of the film. I have a projector that I love and I'm to afraid to file its gate down. but some projectors like the yashica has a gate section that completely comes out so that was easy.

By hindering the film... i mean making the film not travel properly through the gate.

Ruining the projector. I hope to find a broken Bolex to remove the film gate. Otherwise I may look for another kind of projector.

I know slrs are cheap now but remember you will only get an hour and a half of still images out of any slr before it dies….with our stop motion film we shot 120k frames on a nikon d70 before it died. Most pro cameras are rated for 150k.

Thats one of reasons the pana gh4 is good when shooting stills/scanning…it has a silent mode so then it only shoots with a digital shutter so less to break.

I did a bit of thinking about and research on this subject. I was researching the idea about electronic shutters. The Samsung Nex has electronic, as Pav has mentioned using. Also there is a new Sony a7 that has one (expensive). I can look for others. But in the meantime I was told by someone who has many cameras permanently on timelapse, that they have only had one camera fail after 8,000,000 exposures between 6 cameras. Their Pentax K2 has 500,000 alone, 2 Fujis P&Ss with 2,000,000 actuations and only one that failed after 1.2 million actuations.

I had been aware of the 120k limit for the Nikons, but if your experience with the d70 is consistent, then still, that would be less than £100 (for a body) to scan 30 films. I love my d70s but I may risk it or buy a second one.

With machine vision costing around £700 for 2k+, I think I will try the stills camera route. Just choosing the best option.

I have been thinking about the gh4, too so thanks for the recommendation.

For scanning, most people talk about micro switches that physically click for each frame….I could never get then to last for very long and they make the projector shake and wobble. I ended up using the clear class reed switch (ebay) with a 3mm wide super strong magnet( ebay) to trigger the camera/mouse switch.

I would like to tether and control through arduino linked with something like dragonmotion. I've used it before with a hand-made motor controlled rig so it seems a good option for me. And I think that's a good reason for using a camera that can be tethered and has live view.

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions!

[Simon Lucas]

Here’s a close up of the mechanism, it’s normally covered to get a clear and even light which is not contaminated by the room light. There is a simple claw taken from a 16mm toy projector, the gate is simple, it's new and has been machined out of aluminium and anodized in black, the aperture is for Super 16. The claw brings the frame and then rubs against the micro-switch which is connected to the camera’s remote.

I am not much of an expert when it comes to the industrial cameras that can be used for capture. In my experience the Mightex camera’s picture quality wasn’t great, it is a CMOS sensor, [but that could be down to the settings I used it on], the TIS camera does have a CCD and I felt the picture was superior, the Point and Grey is CCD and in my opinion isn’t as good as the TIS. On all my cameras I used the same enlarger lens reverse mounted - Schneider S Componon 50mm. The Mightex is the easiest to set up and use it also has much simpler software, but all machine vision cameras require the computer.

My experiments using a compact digital picture taking camera started by accident when I used my digital camera to copy some 110 and 35mm negatives. I was surprised and amazed with the final results so I used my digital camera for some 16 negative [just stills], in my opinion the quality was better than the industrial cameras that I had used, there was more clarity, depth and no pixilation and so I started building my scanner to be used with a compact digital camera.

Now that I’ve scanned more film with my scanner and have made modifications mainly to stabilize the scanner and dealing with negative film I feel my 16mm scans are as good as my professional scans especially when watching the films side by side on a 50 inch TV screen. For more stability I have put the unit flat rather than standing up as you can see on my website. To transfer negative film easily I have experimented with various gels and filters placed on the backlight, in the end I made my own filter, I scanned some negative film, I then inverted it in Photoshop and printed in on clear acetate, I use this as a filter. I have been so impressed by the results that I haven’t had my recent stuff scanned by the lab.

Pav

Pav. thanks for the photo. Quite small but I kind of get the idea. I like your serendipity with the mechanism, the use of the still camera and that you commissioned the gate yourself. Inspiring. And thanks for confirming that the results have become to your liking. The technique of the colour negative is worth remembering.

[Simon Lucas]

Pav

Pav, by the way, your developing tank modification is superb.