24 FPS VS 18 FPS

Post by **MovieStuff** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:00 pm

Yeah, I don't know why Kodak adopted 18fps as the standard for Super 8. Considering it only marginally faster than the 16fps standard for Regular 8, the additional motion data was hardly worth the change in speed. But if they had made the rate for Super 8 20fps, it would have made film transfers much easier. Heck, if there was a 20p standard right now, I'd use it at the drop of a hat for film to be shown digitally. Films shot at 18fps and played at 20fps on video look so much better than at 18fps, at least here in North America.

Post by **S8 Booster** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:59 pm

Andreas Wideroe wrote:I shoot all my Super8 either with 24fps or 25fps (which my Nizo Pro supports).

/Andreas

Andreas, i phink you forgot to mention that you live in PAL-land which has the 25 fps base TV standard ;) 1:1 awrite....

Shoot... nothing but film...ish...

Post by **sciolist** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:01 am

". . . magnetic sound stripe I applied to Super 8 films I made forty-five to fifty-five years ago . . ." Maybe the adhesive has taken a toll, since it seems I've lost the ability to count. I meant to say as long as forty-five years ago.

Post by **carllooper** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:19 am

Yes, where I live (Australia) we adopted the PAL system for video (25 fps or 50 fields).

With digital video, various playback rates have been implemented over the years for various codecs, including 24, 25, 30, 60 but have never seen 18 in any drop down list. Some codecs may support arbitrary playback rates, but NLEs with which I'm familiar can otherwise make the necessary adjustments for whatever frame rate one has used against whatever playback standard a particular codec supports.

A Super8 camera I used years ago could do 16 fps and the footage looked great - that 2 fps difference from 18 was really quite noticeable. Gave the work that 1920s silent movie look, which we exploited by setting the film in the 1920s, using B&W film, dressing actors with art deco ray guns and having them over-exaggerate their acting (as one otherwise does in theatre in order to project to an audience further away).

As the frame rate increases the difference in effect seems to get less appreciable.

C

Post by **Nicholas Kovats** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:08 pm

Glenn,

I suspect your level of craftsmanship was/is the exception.

And that's great to hear your 40+ year strips are still working! My referenced baseline was the average user who may or may not have your consummate level of patience and precision. Getting a typical Super 8 camera into a new user's hands and familiar with basic controls is a big step forward for most people.

Was the process specific to acetate film? Was striping a polyester based film an option? Did you have to grind a channel beforehand?

sciolist wrote:
Nicholas Kovats wrote:EyeSpy88,

It is not worth your efforts to apply magnetic stripes as the application and precision necessary were best left to manufactures as Kodak and Fuji. The homemade solutions were prone to peeling. Someone may correct me but I believe the DIY processes were toxic.
Nicholas,

I'm sure there have been problems of the kind you describe, but magnetic sound stripe I applied to Super 8 films I made forty-five to fifty-five years ago is still in place and still reproduces sound I recorded on it. I used a Weberling striper that wasn't difficult to operate. These stripers turn up occasionally on eBay and, in my view, they're more desirable than other brands. Liquid laminates may have been toxic, but unless a user decided to bathe in or drink the adhesive I'm reasonably sure operation of the Weberling striper was relatively risk-free (I'm still here).

Glenn

Post by **sciolist** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:37 pm

Nicholas Kovats wrote:Was the process specific to acetate film? Was striping a polyester based film an option? Did you have to grind a channel beforehand?

The striping was for acetate film and, as far as I know, not polyester. I just followed instructions provided with the equipment; there wasn't anything about the process that was difficult. I think the big commercial Weberling machines did grind a channel (or channels if a balance stripe was applied), but the amateur machine that I used didn't. I still have a couple Weberling machines (they've interchangeable sprockets to accommodate either regular 8mm or Super 8).

Post by **Nicholas Kovats** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:19 pm

Magnetic striped Regular 8mm? Whoa. Are the A & B R8 magnetic stripes the same dimensions as Super 8? My 1964 Fairchild 900 records to magnetic stripes but I am unsure of the specs. I recently got it working with a 12v NmH power supply. Is the Weberling method completed in the dark?

Post by **sciolist** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:38 am

Nicholas Kovats wrote:Magnetic striped Regular 8mm? Whoa. Are the A & B R8 magnetic stripes the same dimensions as Super 8? My 1964 Fairchild 900 records to magnetic stripes but I am unsure of the specs. I recently got it working with a 12v NmH power supply. Is the Weberling method completed in the dark?

The main stripe for both R8 and S8 is 0.8mm. The Weberling striper is for use with film that has been processed and edited/spliced; it's not for raw stock.

Post by **inlieubeaulieu** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:01 am

Nicholas Kovats wrote:Magnetic striped Regular 8mm? Whoa. Are the A & B R8 magnetic stripes the same dimensions as Super 8? My 1964 Fairchild 900 records to magnetic stripes but I am unsure of the specs. I recently got it working with a 12v NmH power supply. Is the Weberling method completed in the dark?

Do you have any way of replaying the sound from your Fairchild camera? My stepmother has a whole bunch of sound-8mm film (home movies) recorded with one, but we have no way of retrieving the audio.

Post by **S8 Booster** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:08 am

there should be a matching projector which plays sound. iirc a member on this forum knew well about these cams and projectors. try to search on the good or ebay on Fairchild 8mm sound projectoor.

shoot..

Post by **Nicholas Kovats** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:37 pm

No. Audio stripe playback is a function of the projector. And that is a rare projector indeed with an odd sound/picture separation of 54 frames. The associated 8mm projector has been sold a few times, i.e.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-FAIRCHIL ... 2a4b7d373f
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/VINTAGE-1959-FAI ... 5b0b9c7680

There is another one available but the seller is asking for an extraordinary price which includes the infamous Fairchild 900 8mm camera, i.e. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Fairchild-8MM-So ... 1c44ec1263

But there are services that scan your families precious 8mm memories and potentially extract the sound from your magnetic stripe.

inlieubeaulieu wrote:
Nicholas Kovats wrote:Magnetic striped Regular 8mm? Whoa. Are the A & B R8 magnetic stripes the same dimensions as Super 8? My 1964 Fairchild 900 records to magnetic stripes but I am unsure of the specs. I recently got it working with a 12v NmH power supply. Is the Weberling method completed in the dark?
Do you have any way of replaying the sound from your Fairchild camera? My stepmother has a whole bunch of sound-8mm film (home movies) recorded with one, but we have no way of retrieving the audio.

Post by **Nicholas Kovats** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:34 pm

I just confirmed that Frame Discrete here in Toronto can extract your family's 8mm audio during a film scan to a separate audio .wav file. Audio sync will be lost due to the fact that the audio is extracted at the scanner film gate. Remember that your original 8mm audio was recorded 56 frames after the camera film gate. To restore sync simply slip the separate audio track forward 56 frames to match your scanned film/video track in your editing software.

http://framediscreet.com/home/

Post by **inlieubeaulieu** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:49 pm

Thanks for the info! I've been watching those Fairchild projectors on Ebay, but I don't quite have the funds to pick one up (at least a working one).
I've been meaning to try out Frame Discrete's new 5K scanner for some of my personal work, maybe I'll send it all in together one of these days

Post by **David M. Leugers** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:05 pm

I shoot and have shot all my footage (16mm, S-8mm(DS-8mm) and R-8mm) at 24fps. Personal choice and I like the results both projected and transferred. With today's stocks, the more light reaching the film at 18fps versus 24fps is not as big a deal as it once was. That said, there is no "right" film speed to shoot at. You decide. Films shot way back in the silent era were all over the map fps wise. That is kinda where we are at today = a return to film's visual strengths with sound taking a back seat or absent all together. You may decide you like 18fps better, best to test and decide.

braxus · Post by **braxus** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:11 am

I mainly shoot at 18 fps, because the Elmo I used only offered that speed. I will be using 24 fps from here on in.

If anyone wants to see some Super 8 transferred at 5K and down rezzed to 1080P, see this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLPcr5gAMqQ

I had it done at Gamma Ray Digital in the USA at 5K and it was saved as DPX files. Had the DPX set to 18fps and then when it was rendered, I saved the compressed file to 24 fps at 1080P.

Filmshooting

24 FPS VS 18 FPS

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