Max 8:New life for super 8 or gimmick?

[Shion]

Rick- thanks for the info. Very interesting.

That's actually quite impressive for Mitch to have thought of it in the mid-80's, especially if he had not heard of Super 16 before.

-Bon

[MovieStuff]

What I mean is that they took open source stuff and seemingly copyrighted it. Like, someone making you pay anytime you're using the sound or letter 'a'.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you provide an example? To my knowledge, they have no patent on widening the gate. Copyrighting a name isn't the same thing as telling someone else that they can't use the process which, to my knowledge, Pro8mm has never done.

Honestly, it just gets tiresome to hear Pro8mm bashing all the time from people that, admittedly, don't use them. Kind of like complaining about the food in a restaurant that you never eat at. I see the same thing on other forums about Yale. "I've never personally used them but I hear that....."

I've known Phil for over 25 years and I have always found him to be very understanding and genuinely interested in super 8 but he is running a business. This is his livelihood. This is how he feeds his family. No one here works the job they do for purely altruistic reasons. In the early days, he was always accessible but, as the business grew, more and more people wanted a piece of him. Having shipped almost 2000 units of our own product line, I can certainly relate to how that becomes harder and harder to accommodate. As in any business, there comes a time when you have to draw a line in the sand and limit the amount of customer hand-holding that you can do, otherwise you have no personal life. It doesn't mean that you don't care but it does mean that you are limited in how you can publicly manifest such feelings to the satisfaction of all (which is impossible to do, under best of conditions).

The bottom line is that they are a successful company that provides a product for a group of people that obviously likes their service, otherwise they would not have have become successful. When you consider that they have done so in the face of such wide spread bad guess-press on forums like this, then they must be doing something right, at least from a business standpoint. As with any company, there are those that may very well have a legitimate beef with Pro8mm for whatever reason, and Phil and I don't see eye to eye on everything, but obviously they satisfy some sort of market needs, even if those needs are not from every single person that shoots super 8. In fact, I think I would respect Phil less if he tried to promise everything to everyone instead of producing a specific line of products for a specific interest group that has the money for the product being offered. If you're in that group, then great. If you're not, then the problem is that you simply don't have the money, not that Pro8mm isn't servicing the appropriate group.

I think the biggest beef people have is that super 8 used to be damn near free and now it is a rare, endangered format that costs serious money to maintain. Whoever that money goes to is who whiners complain about the most, it seems. That reflects the juvenile nature of the complainer more than any greed on the part of the company in question. How can super 8 grow up if the people using it refuse to do so?

Roger

[David M. Leugers]

Well said Roger. This ongoing bash of Pro8mm and Yale both is kinda tiresome to some of us. People can either vote with their feet (take your business somewhere else) or vote with their wallet (buy their products or services). It is that simple. To carry on about what YOU want them to either be or to become is as pointless as carrying on about them if you have never personally done business with them to start with. My own personal limited experiences with both Pro8mm and Yale has been positive. Others I am sure have other experiences. I feel that "Unreasonable Expectations" is a common problem when you read many posting on this site about Pro8mm, Yale and Kodak. It is the polar opposite of a business not caring about its customers, and both lead to rather slanted views of things making it difficult for others to determine the truth of the matter...


David M. Leugers

[jaxshooter]

I'm not sure about who does what to which camera,but I have an Elmo 1012 SXL.It needs some minor work anyway,so I'm considering the option of converting it to SD8 or Max or whatever.Is this a possibility now or is it worth the bother?

[Evan Kubota]

"When you consider that they have done so in the face of such wide spread bad guess-press on forums like this, then they must be doing something right, at least from a business standpoint."

I'm not sure how you can deduce this. The majority of experiences with them that I have read are negative. The reason they still exist is because for a large demographic (shooters in the US) they are the only source for custom loaded Kodak film. It so happens that despite being the only choice, the quality and service are not where they should be. Their continued existence is, IMO, more a sign of their corner on the niche S8 market rather than any sign of quality or legitimacy. Some of my other hobbies involve similar situations, where a retailer is the only choice and remains somewhat successful despite poor service and quality.

[MovieStuff]

"The majority of experiences with them that I have read are negative. .

Which, of course, quantifies nothing.

Think about it: Common sense dictates that if the negative comments you have read truly reflected the rule and not the exception, then Pro8mm would go out of business in no time because there is nothing they are offering that can not be found elsewhere and, as is pointed out time and again, often at a lower price. Thus Pro8mm has no monopoly on the super 8 market, as you have suggested. They do offer a particular product and service aimed at a particular group of people. Some people don't fit into that group but wished they did or some people wished Pro8mm would service a different customer base and they simply don't. I am not saying that Pro8mm has zero unhappy customers but that goes with the territory when running a business. But, historically, people post negative comments when they are dissapointed but rarely go out of their way to post positive comments when they get what they want. It strikes me that the internet is just one big bitch session, most of the time, and usually it is second hand information. I mean, what are your own experiences with Pro8mm?

Roger

[Rick Palidwor]

I'm not sure about who does what to which camera,but I have an Elmo 1012 SXL.It needs some minor work anyway,so I'm considering the option of converting it to SD8 or Max or whatever.Is this a possibility now or is it worth the bother?

You can easily convert it to super-duper 8 by filing out the gate. It will have all the same issues as other cameras (prone to vingetting, scratch in film during processing,) but if you're careful you can miimize these and maximize your image.

"Max" 8 as Pro8 has defined it, would entail recentering the optics, which is a different matter.

Rick

[Mitch Perkins]

What I mean is that they took open source stuff and seemingly copyrighted it. Like, someone making you pay anytime you're using the sound or letter 'a'.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you provide an example? To my knowledge, they have no patent on widening the gate. Copyrighting a name isn't the same thing as telling someone else that they can't use the process which, to my knowledge, Pro8mm has never done.

Honestly, it just gets tiresome to hear Pro8mm bashing all the time from people that, admittedly, don't use them. Kind of like complaining about the food in a restaurant that you never eat at.

Like, say, McDonalds? Trans-fatty acids, anyone? Never heard of trans-fatty acids? Nothing to complain about there...move along, people.

I see the same thing on other forums about Yale. "I've never personally used them but I hear that....."

Oh, that's called "word of mouth advertising". It's not guaranteed to be favourable to the advertiser.

I've known Phil for over 25 years

Finally! A 100% pure and un-biased report on Pro8mm!

and I have always found him to be very understanding and genuinely interested in super 8 but he is running a business. This is his livelihood. This is how he feeds his family. No one here works the job they do for purely altruistic reasons. In the early days, he was always accessible but, as the business grew, more and more people wanted a piece of him. Having shipped almost 2000 units of our own product line, I can certainly relate to how that becomes harder and harder to accommodate. As in any business, there comes a time when you have to draw a line in the sand and limit the amount of customer hand-holding that you can do, otherwise you have no personal life. It doesn't mean that you don't care but it does mean that you are limited in how you can publicly manifest such feelings to the satisfaction of all (which is impossible to do, under best of conditions).

Sorry, did someone on the forum ask for a date with Phil? Or what are we talking about? Just normal, everyday run-of-the-mill employee courtesy on the phone would be fine, thanks.

The bottom line is that they are a successful company that provides a product for a group of people that obviously likes their service, otherwise they would not have have become successful.

Not unlike Microsoft; everyone loves Microsoft...that's why they're rich!

When you consider that they have done so in the face of such wide spread bad guess-press on forums like this, then they must be doing something right, at least from a business standpoint.

Whatever it is, I guess it's not the "generating wide spread bad guess-press on forums like this" part. Someone else did that. *Musta* been.

As with any company, there are those that may very well have a legitimate beef with Pro8mm for whatever reason, and Phil and I don't see eye to eye on everything, but obviously they satisfy some sort of market needs, even if those needs are not from every single person that shoots super 8.

Lots of businesses offer special rates to those that need 'em. Especially in the film biz. What's the special plead here?

In fact, I think I would respect Phil less if (snip)

Boy is that ever not the issue.

I think the biggest beef people have is that super 8 used to be damn near free and now it is a rare, endangered format that costs serious money to maintain.

For whom? On what level?

Whoever that money goes to is who whiners complain about the most, it seems. That reflects the juvenile nature of the complainer more than any greed on the part of the company in question.

" more than any greed on the part of the company in question." But not completely.

How can super 8 grow up if the people using it refuse to do so?

Roger

Sorry, can't answer that - gotta go laugh really hard now.

Mitch

[VideoFred]

OK, about money....

Look, I have a small business of my own - my entire life.
This business has nothing to do with film, but the financial principles are the same.

If I have to spend my time for somebody, no matter what I do, I have to charge about 50 Euro/hour. About 1/5 is for me... can you imagine?

All the rest is for the Belgian State, my banker ,electricity, heating, telephone, machines, spare parts, stock, etc etc etc....

But back on topic, now:
Working on tiny fragile things like super-8 cams is not the easyest thing to do... It takes lots of time to do it well.
And time=money. This is reality and there's nothing we can do about it.

Look, in your free time, an hour does not count that much.
But in a business environtment, one hour is one hour.
In my case, one hour means 40 Euro's costs!

It's not easy to have a business, these days, and make money from it.
Customers are very demanding: everything must be perfect and price must be low at the same time, witch is impossible.

So if you want to keep Super-8 in business, you must be prepared to pay for it. You must understand no one can do anything for free.

Fred.

[aj]

On the original topic:

Is it really necessary to re-centre at all? If the full S8-filmborder is added the centre would move 0.35mm. Actually it is less.

One might also consider moving the filmgate a bit. Just widen (while being at widening) the screwholes a bit sideways and just put the gate in and pull it a bit to the right. Make sure it stays horizontal.

Check using the Baumgarten method, light the gate from the rear and check the wall-projected borders with the viewfinder...
Might be revealing to other needed adjustments.

[Justin Lovell]

MovieStuff wrote:
How can super 8 grow up if the people using it refuse to do so?

Roger


Sorry, can't answer that - gotta go laugh really hard now.

Mitch

I think that was quite a viable comment, maybe I'm taking your laughter in the wrong light.

About Mcdonalds, they're playing a completely different game then PRO8.
They market CHEAP fast food for people who want things FAST and AFFORDABLE (that's an understatement).

Would you entrust your film with McDonalds based business?

Quality vs. Quantity. That's why people get it done on a RANK or are willing to pay a few extra bucks for someone to spend their time on YOUR footage.

[MovieStuff]

Finally! A 100% pure and un-biased report on Pro8mm!

Well, I would like to think that the opinion of someone that knows Phil personally would mean as much to you as second and third hand information.

that's called "word of mouth advertising". It's not guaranteed to be favourable to the advertiser.

Dozens of people can post that they have a problem with a given company but that doesn't reflect the attitude of hundreds more that are satisfied but don't post anything at all. And, of course, that is the fallacy in the negative-posts argument. If the only customers that Pro8mm has are the handful of unhappy souls that complain on the internet, then Pro8mm is hardly the all powerful monopoly that controls the super 8 industry and would be out of business in no time.

Sorry, can't answer that - gotta go laugh really hard now.

Actually, it is funny, isn't it? I mean, your post (like so many from others) cites no personal experience with Pro8mm but that doesn't stop you or others from drawing a conclusion or repeating second and third hand information, which can make an issue seem bigger than it really is. I am always amazed at the people that will spend 30 minutes bitching about something that doesn't affect them directly but won't spend 10 minutes calling the company in question to sort out the facts.

I'm not here to be an apologist for the alleged transgressions of Pro8mm because I don't have first hand knowledge of such things. Why others lacking the same information feel the need to comment is beyond me and that's the point of my post. If they aren't a monopoly and you can find the same resources elsewhere (which you can), then I really don't see the point in bashing a company over and over that you don't even use, be it Yale, Pro8mm or whoever.

As I say, there are things that Phil and I do not see eye to eye on and they are far from a perfect company but the notion that Pro8mm is an evil monopoly out to screw all their customers is obviously laughable at face value, if one knows anything about business.

I know I'm not going to change any minds, here, so I'll just leave it at that. Sorry for hijacking this thread.

Roger

[edgebsl]

You know I havent really read on here how Pro8mm is some evil empire like Moviestuff implies.At least not of the posts taken seriously.

I think the main issue here as I started this discussion awhile back is that they took an idea that was already being used widely and publicly with some success and kinda just took credit for it. And ,in turn charge way more it!

Of course ,they don't even call the Bealieu what it is, less someone find out they could buy such a camera outside of pro 8mm.

A lot of camera shops charge more than others for the same work ,sometimes it reflects the qaulity of the work....but it seems to me the biggest beef that people on here have with them is their prices seem to based on anassumption that super 8 users are ignorant and uninformed which is very far from reality.

It kind of reminds me of big music stores that sell guitars to moms and dads for more than retail price ,because they know the mom that takes little johnny to his first guitar lesson has no idea what things go for.

I will say that the repackaged film stocks are a specialized service which is worth the price. So I'm not critizing everything they do,mind you.Just some things.

[Mitch Perkins]

MovieStuff wrote:
How can super 8 grow up if the people using it refuse to do so?

Roger


Sorry, can't answer that - gotta go laugh really hard now.

Mitch

I think that was quite a viable comment, maybe I'm taking your laughter in the wrong light.

Sounded like a kindergarten teacher chastising the class. Roger snipped and did not answer my questions. The format has been in use by professionals and amatuers alike for what? 40 years? Grow up,how, exactly?

About Mcdonalds, they're playing a completely different game then PRO8.
They market CHEAP fast food for people who want things FAST and AFFORDABLE (that's an understatement).
Would you entrust your film with McDonalds based business?
Quality vs. Quantity. That's why people get it done on a RANK or are willing to pay a few extra bucks for someone to spend their time on YOUR footage.

I was simply following through on a bad analogy of Roger's. People can and will talk about anything and everything whether they use/have used/ it or not, and sometimes it's *perfectly valid* to do so.
Your response is a total strawman, though I don't believe you did it on purpose.

Mitch

[Mitch Perkins]

Finally! A 100% pure and un-biased report on Pro8mm!

Well, I would like to think that the opinion of someone that knows Phil personally would mean as much to you as second and third hand information.

Why? Nobody here cares about Phil, they have a problem with the service or the price, and they are voicing that on an international non-commercial forum. If you have a problem with that, it's definitely all yours, sir.

that's called "word of mouth advertising". It's not guaranteed to be favourable to the advertiser.

Dozens of people can post that they have a problem with a given company but that doesn't reflect the attitude of hundreds more that are satisfied but don't post anything at all.

Let's start a new thread just for positive experience feedback wrt Pro8mm. See if it fills up.

And, of course, that is the fallacy in the negative-posts argument. If the only customers that Pro8mm has are the handful of unhappy souls that complain on the internet, then Pro8mm is hardly the all powerful monopoly that controls the super 8 industry and would be out of business in no time

The people who complain are *not* pro8mm customers. As to "all powerful monopoly", whatever; it's the service and the price people don't like.

Sorry, can't answer that - gotta go laugh really hard now.

Actually, it is funny, isn't it? I mean, your post (like so many from others) cites no personal experience with Pro8mm but that doesn't stop you or others from drawing a conclusion or repeating second and third hand information, which can make an issue seem bigger than it really is. I am always amazed at the people that will spend 30 minutes bitching about something that doesn't affect them directly but won't spend 10 minutes calling the company in question to sort out the facts.

Okeedoke. They came up 20 years ago and told folks to make a Super8 movie no matter what; they particularly liked the phrase "artistic failure" - all you needed was the right VHS cover to sucker folks into renting your crap movie *once*. This was snake oil; they would get your camera/filmstock/video asssist money and good luck selling your little piece of crap.
Quite punk, really. Ha!
Anywho since then I've called a few times and they're always happy to be snotty. Luckily I don't actually need them for anything. Come to think of it, no one does.

I'm not here to be an apologist for the alleged transgressions of Pro8mm because I don't have first hand knowledge of such things. Why others lacking the same information feel the need to comment is beyond me and that's the point of my post. If they aren't a monopoly and you can find the same resources elsewhere (which you can), then I really don't see the point in bashing a company over and over that you don't even use, be it Yale, Pro8mm or whoever.

Freedom of speech is a bitch, eh?

As I say, there are things that Phil and I do not see eye to eye on and they are far from a perfect company but the notion that Pro8mm is an evil monopoly out to screw all their customers is obviously laughable at face value, if one knows anything about business.

I know I'm not going to change any minds, here, so I'll just leave it at that. Sorry for hijacking this thread.

Roger

You didn't hijack the thread. It started with a complaint about Pro8mm. The complaint did not, however contain the words, "evil monopoly".

Mitch