FULL SIZE MiniDV CLIP POSTED AGFA MOVIECHROME 40 ON WORKPRIN

Post by **S8 Booster** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:58 pm

Some info from a decade back:

In the early days of DV NLE there was a (probably more cards available) professional Broadcast Quality Digitizer Board from Fast? This (analog YUV? input) capture card was (due to my flash memory) for PAL 768x576 only and used a dedicated JPEG compression Processor.

The compressing could be set in 2 or 3 levels.

This compression method is very demanding. Try to set up this project (PAL 25 FPS 768x576) in Adobe Premiere and run JPEG compression in software modus. My newest 800 mHz iMAC do not stand a chance with the old 1994 AP/JPEG although the QT motor used is 2002 6+.

From this I assume that the JPEG compressor offers excellent quality, most likley better than the MiniDV format but it does probably require a separate prosessing unit to cope with it. It was combined with RAID disks of the time.

MiniDV format should be the least demanding method.

R

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:25 pm

S8 Booster wrote: From this I assume that the JPEG compressor offers excellent quality, most likley better than the MiniDV format

sorry, wrong assumption. ;-) dv performs a lot better at the same compression level. basically dv is an improved version of mjpeg with variable sized macroblocks and some other smart features. however, mjpeg can be used at any bit rate you want, even vbr if you have material that varies in complexity, and it can take advantage of 4:2:2 sampling. this makes it a better choice for "near broadcast quality" editing, but i doubt the cards from the 90's are up to that. i used a dc30 back then and it was ok, but not excellent.

by the way, the reason the mac can't play those clips is that the quicktime mjpeg codec is incredibly slow, and hasn't been updated since qt 2 afaik. try creating a clip with the pjpeg codec instead, which is basically the same thing but frame based instead of field (like dv) and at least 10 times faster. if you're using windows there are several mjpeg codecs that can be used -- even for realtime compression if you have a "tv card" or similar.

/matt

Post by **S8 Booster** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:33 pm

Sure you are mostly right except that this Fast (German product too bad I threw away all the specs) CC was not a consumer card.
It was sold for use with broadcast pro/beta gear of the time creating NLE editing for the Beta format without visual quality loss.

Actually the Sony representative tried to sell me this cam/NLE package always.

R

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:22 pm

S8 Booster wrote:[This] was not a consumer card.

yeah, i quickly removed that word from my post, but it seems like you sneaked in during the 10 seconds that took. the dc30 isn't a consumer card either. i was referring to the difference between the matrox/pinnacle/whatever ~$2,000 systems compared to the avid and lightworks $100,000 turnkey systems which also use mjpeg.

/matt

Post by **crimsonson** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:02 pm

mattias wrote:
dv performs a lot better at the same compression level. basically dv is an improved version of mjpeg with variable sized macroblocks and some other smart features. however, mjpeg can be used at any bit rate you want, even vbr if you have material that varies in complexity, and it can take advantage of 4:2:2 sampling. this makes it a better choice for "near broadcast quality" editing,

/matt

Agree with Matt. DV is a more efficient codec. However, the term "near broadcast quality" is a little misleading. MJPEG at higher bandwidth IS the standard for broadcast facilities throughout the world. From FCP, AVid to AE, MJPEG is used. Even facilities who uses DV as the acquisition format, many of them edit is MJPEG based systems like FCP and Avid MC/Symphony.

Post by **mattias** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:12 pm

crimsonson wrote:However, the term "near broadcast quality" is a little misleading. MJPEG at higher bandwidth IS the standard for broadcast facilities throughout the world.

well, i believe that's exactly what i said? :-)

/matt

Post by **crimsonson** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:14 pm

mattias wrote:
well, i believe that's exactly what i said?

/matt

Oh
[lol]

Post by **Lucas Lightfeat** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:03 am

Super 8 Booster -

I've had an idea - persuade the producers of this great filmstock to produce a sound striped cartridge - if they have an entrepeneurial spirit, they will realise that there is a definite market here for a sound film rival to Kodachrome - it will sell and sell and sell.

Plastic moulding - design is already done - just use an old cart

Sound striping - technology is there - just needs to be done in dark

Ã‚Â¥Ã¢â€šÂ¬$

What do you think? Could it ever happen, or am I even more of a loser than I already thought?

Lucas

Post by **Lucas Lightfeat** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:06 am

Just noticed that the clip was filmed in 1987, which means that it's probably not available any more, which answers my last question just fine - I'll just go and kill myself now....

Lucas

Post by **Lucas Lightfeat** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:07 am

Super 8 Booster -

I've had an idea - persuade the producers of this great filmstock to produce a sound striped cartridge - if they have an entrepeneurial spirit, they will realise that there is a definite market here for a sound film rival to Kodachrome - it will sell and sell and sell.

Plastic moulding - design is already done - just use an old cart

Sound striping - technology is there - just needs to be done in dark

Ã‚Â¥Ã¢â€šÂ¬$

What do you think? Could it ever happen, or am I even more of a loser than I already thought?

Lucas

Post by **S8 Booster** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:29 am

Lucas Lightfeat wrote:Super 8 Booster -

Plastic moulding - design is already done - just use an old cart
Sound striping - technology is there - just needs to be done in dark

Ã‚Â¥Ã¢â€šÂ¬$

What do you think? Could it ever happen, or am I even more of a loser than I already thought?

Lucas

Not a bad idea at all but the key word is most likely as ever VOLUME. Maybe Andreas can put up some Agfa Petition?

Anyway, I can give a few details for this film/cart/sound.

Film Material:
- A little more grainy than K40 for projection. No Problem for Video transfer
- Intense green, blue and my comments: red. That makes RGB?
- In my view: Perfect for WP movie transfer - noticeably better than K40
- The colours seen on the video is very close to the projected ones, maybe
better except for the deep shadows turning black as ever.
- This film or processing were discontinued by Agfa in 1995 or so. Processing still available by Andec or Kahl I think.

Cartridge:
- The cartridges were of original Agfa design.
- They produced sound carts a well. No problem.
- No idea of the availabilty of the castings.

Soundstriping:
- Agfa produces (or produced) the sound stripes them selves beeing a
famous "tonband" maker. Post stripe material still available frm Agfa but
possibly production is stopped.
- I belive that the manufacture of the actual stripe material is discontinued,
possibly for the same reasons that Kodak discontinued theirs.

Jitter.
On my films the Agfa showed up jittery compared to the new (good) K40 stock done in the same transfer. The jitter is not so bad that it is bothersome for projection but it became very noticable with the WP transfer. Some improvement or the FrameMaster required?

Generally: Do not know. I guess this project had to be evaluated but more S8 Shooters to verify it.

I also believe that Agfa do have other excellent film stocks that could have been great for S8 purpose.

R

Post by **S8 Booster** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:55 pm

For curiosity only: Agfa 40(silent) & 160 (sound) carts- The 40 silent opened.

R

Post by **S8 Booster** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:08 pm

My Dutch is not exactly reliable but? I? just found? 11 Agfa Moviechrome 40 cartridges from 1994 for sale in Holland if I understand it right? Kept refrigerated.

Processing was included originally but not valid anymore as far as I know.

http://www.supersens.nl/supersens/posti ... es/15.html

R

Post by **crimsonson** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:41 pm

BTW - Try Photo JPEG - which many editors and composite artist prefer over DV. Its 4:2:2 and lower data rate also.

Hare is a link for quality test of many popular high end codecs .

http://onerivermedia.com/codecs/index.htm

Post by **Lucas Lightfeat** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:53 pm

Andreas - why do my posts get multiple entries sometimes? I can't figure it out at all...

Lucas