Technical input required to submit to kodak RE: 50D stock

[Justin Lovell]

kodak was considering releasing the 50D stock, but the questions that hold them back are:

(According to kodak)
1. Who should super 8 be targeted at, the professional market or the consumer?
2. lack of affordable transfer facilities
3. complaints about the negative stocks... people not knowing how to shoot the 'pro' stock and having problems, tying up customer support having to explain how to shoot neg stocks.
4. notching of cameras/useablity for the amateur shooter.
5. Light loss when shooting a 50D stock.

on the plus side:
(according to me)
1. Can be shot without a filter and colour corrected in post.
2. slick look comparable to a high speed 16mm film stock.
3. no need for ND filters when shooting exteriors


Anyone have anything else to add, i'm sending off some feedback information to the technical rep.

thanks,

justin

[carlweston]

"Who should super 8 be targeted at, the professional market or the consumer?"

It's clear from reading the post around here that this should be targeted for the professional market.

[Sparky]

4. notching of cameras/useablity for the amateur shooter

and 3 and 1

I thought that had already been decided that I mean they keep saying that S8 is now a professional format- why would they pose questions like that? They need to make up their mind!

Mark

[B Movie Mogul]

I was wondering the same thing myself. We've already had the 'easy' stock replaced by one that Joe Everyday is going to have to learn how to meter for and shoot manually.... I think we have a contradiction at the big K.....

[sophocle]

I recently shot some s8 50d, for the second time.

I exposed at 50 asa and had the lab pull it 1/2 stop. This tamed contrast and made the image practically grainless.

It was telecined by FSFT.

What can I say, it is simply spectacular. I am thinking of sending a 5 min. clip to a MPEG encoding company, if the FTP site is revived one day I can post it.

Here is what I have learned:

1. By some 50d form pro8mm--it is o. k. they don't bite and the product was superb. The $5 premium over v200 from Kodak was worth this spectacular stock.

2. If shooting on a sunny day, expose at 50 ASA and develop N-.5.

3. Use a tripod. The exeptional sharpness of this film will suffer from the s8 format as it is, don't torture it.

4. My 7008's light meter always botches the exposure. It works fine with v200, but the averaging just does not cut it with this film. Exposing incorrectly actually made more apparent grain than v200t.

5. There is simply no comparison with k40, the detail (and I do not mean little things far away) is just amazing.

6. I does not look like s16, but not as in not enough quality: it is the same as 35mm still will never look like med. format. Different look, but not home-movie stuff.

This may become my default s8 film.

[T-Scan]

Count me in on a push for 50D!

1. It should be marketed as "Prosumer" for people with small budgets that know what they are doing.

2. Most decent cameras will read it as 50D, consumer models will read it as 40T, 1/3rd stop over... not a bad thing.

3. It would yield the finest grain, sharpness, and latatude of any previous S-8 stock. (true for grain with the new V2's)

4. Image quality would open up possibitily in pro applications.

5. It would be the perfect addition to round out the super 8 negetive choices.

[B Movie Mogul]

I'm all for it myself. The more, the merrier

[Yemi]

kodak was considering releasing the 50D stock, but the questions that hold them back are:

(According to kodak)
1. Who should super 8 be targeted at, the professional market or the consumer?
2. lack of affordable transfer facilities
3. complaints about the negative stocks... people not knowing how to shoot the 'pro' stock and having problems, tying up customer support having to explain how to shoot neg stocks.
4. notching of cameras/useablity for the amateur shooter.
5. Light loss when shooting a 50D stock.

on the plus side:
(according to me)
1. Can be shot without a filter and colour corrected in post.
2. slick look comparable to a high speed 16mm film stock.
3. no need for ND filters when shooting exteriors


Anyone have anything else to add, i'm sending off some feedback information to the technical rep.

thanks,

justin

Most of the points made by your rep refer to negative stock in general, not 50D specifically. Kodak have already shown commitment to super8 negative by releasing Vision2 200t and 500t. Right now they have an incomplete product line because there is no low speed fine grain negative option - that's where 50D comes in.

These stocks may confuse newcomers but it could be helped with some documentation.

The cartridge film speed notch should be the same as K40 - 40asa without the filter in place. Slight overexposure of negative stocks always helps grain.

The filter notch should NOT be present which would prevent the majority of cameras from using the 85 filter by default.

EVERY super8 camera out there is capable of 40asa without the filter!!
The confusing part is explaining to people to set the filter switch to 'indoor' instead of outdoor.

Kodak should have a web page on shooting their negative super8 stocks.
If they took a little time to prepare some on-line documentation, they could prevent a lot of confusion.

The last point your rep makes kind of exposes his/her lack of super8 knowledge. K40 is 25asa outdoors, 1 whole f-stop slower than 50D.

-----
Yemi

[christoph]

The confusing part is explaining to people to set the filter switch to 'indoor' instead of outdoor.

yeah, i find this ironic too...
now it backfires that they always believed people are too stupid.
they should just have made a manual EI dial and a switch which says filter on/off. people would have learned that in five minutes... and if not, you could always write the ASA (and the filter usage) on the packaging ;)

++ christoph

[Actor]

(According to kodak)

4. notching of cameras/useablity for the amateur shooter.

The cartridge film speed notch should be the same as K40 - 40asa without the filter in place. Slight overexposure of negative stocks always helps grain.

The filter notch should NOT be present which would prevent the majority of cameras from using the 85 filter by default.

Yemi

Yemi is right on!!

Since ASA 50 is not covered by SMPTE 166 the choice is to notch it as ASA 40 or as ASA 64. ASA 40 is the better choice since it is better overexpose negative than to underexpose it, and 1/3 stop error is not that big a deal with negative.

And IF the filter notch is NOT present then the position of the indoor/outdoor switch makes no difference.

It is asinine to notch any cartridge in any way that is not compliant with SMPTE 166. Or as close as you can get. Anything else means Kodak is assuming that the user is going to make mistake A so Kodak is going to deliberatly make mistake B to correct it. This means the user who has SMPTE compliant equipment and who knows what he is doing is out of luck if he does not know what Kodak is doing. Knowledgable users should have the right to expect compliance with the standard.

Trying to idiot proof anything is useless because the idiots are too darn smart. They will always find a way to do it wrong. (Actor's corrolary to Murphy's Law.)

Vision2 200T currently omits the filter notch in NON compliance with SMPTE 166. Why? Apparently because Kodak is afraid the PROFESSIONALS will screw up by attaching an 85 filter out of habit and thus getting double filtration. PLEASE. Any professional who does that (A)deserves what he gets and (B)will soon learn not to do it.

[jessh]

I havn't tested it myself but I have heard some people say that 100asa Vision 2 has less grain than 50D does. If this is the case I might be me interested in seeing V2 100 instead of 50D. Just a thought.

~Jess

[jessh]

Woops, I had not heard about the new vision 2 50D (7201). If that is the stock that you are talking about then I agree it should be much finer grain than the 100T and would be a much better choice. Of course I would also really like to see 100T in super8.

~Jess

[Alex]

kodak was considering releasing the 50D stock, but the questions that hold them back are:

(According to kodak)
1. Who should super 8 be targeted at, the professional market or the consumer?

Professional market.

2. lack of affordable transfer facilities.

Perhaps

3. complaints about the negative stocks... people not knowing how to shoot the 'pro' stock and having problems, tying up customer support having to explain how to shoot neg stocks.

Easily solved, simply put a flyer in each cartridge with internet links to various places where these questions can be answered.

4. notching of cameras/useablity for the amateur shooter.
notch it like K-40, the one stop overexposure is actually quite acceptable for negative stock, however notch it so that the 85 filter does not activate.

5. Light loss when shooting a 50D stock.

I don't know what that means

on the plus side:
(according to me)
1. Can be shot without a filter and colour corrected in post.
2. slick look comparable to a high speed 16mm film stock.
3. no need for ND filters when shooting exteriors


Anyone have anything else to add, i'm sending off some feedback information to the technical rep.

thanks,

justin